SF Students Suspended & Barred From Walking At Graduation Because They Joked About Teachers On A Blog

from the what-are-we-teaching-students dept

Mon, Apr 9th 2012 10:13am — Mike Masnick

We just recently talked about the famous Tinker v. Des Moines Supreme Court ruling that establishes that students have First Amendment rights. Apparently some schools still don't realize this. Thankfully, there are some organizations willing to step in and remind them when they get confused. The ACLU of Northern California and the Asian Law Caucus were apparently able to successfully convince a San Francisco high school to reverse a previous ruling in which three students were suspended for posting some parody/joking blogs about some teachers:

In March, after students at a San Francisco high school posted parodies and irreverent memes from their home computers about teachers and school administrators on a Tumblr blog (“Teaches Pink Floyd for 3 Weeks; Makes Final Project Due In 3 Days”; “Nags Student Govt About Being On Task; Lags On Everything”), the principal dragged three students she suspected of creating the blog posts into her office and interrogated them at length. (The blog has since been taken down.) The principal then immediately suspended the students for three days, accusing them of bullying and disrupting school activities. The students were also barred from attending a school dance and prom, and even from walking with their classmates at graduation. In addition, the principal did not provide the students with an opportunity to resolve the concerns through a restorative justice approach prior to imposing the punishments, which disregards the School District’s prioritization of restorative justice as an alternative, when possible, to suspension and expulsion.

That seems like a pretty extreme reaction. When I was in high school, I actually remember doing something similar -- parodying the teacher -- in a paper for that teacher. Thankfully, he had a sense of humor. But either way, this is something that tons of high school kids do all the time. And it's clearly protected speech. Once these groups contacted the school and explained the law, the school backed down:

After we contacted the San Francisco Unified School District, they took prompt action to investigate the matter and reverse the discipline. Although the students already missed three days of school, the suspensions have been removed from their records, and they’ll be dancing at prom, and walking with their classmates at graduation.

It's too bad it even needed to go that far. What's really disturbing in all of this is what the school officials are teaching kids. Joking and parody are key forms of education and creativity. It's too bad some schools still don't recognize that (or what the law actually says).

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Filed Under: aclu, asian law caucus, first amendment, high school, san francisco

86 Comments

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Skeptical Cynic (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 9:57am

Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
I wonder under what political ideology that is acceptable? Maybe Socialism, Fascism, and Communism. So I guess the USA is now one of those instead of being the Representative Republic that it was created as. So much for freedom of speech and personal liberty.
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silverscarcat (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:17am

Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
The U.S. has been a fascist state for a long time now.

And I live in the U.S.
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Glen, 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:22am

Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Sadly there is less and less freedom in our freedom of speech.
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Skeptical Cynic (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:23am

Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Sadly, so do I. The USA was a land of freedom. It not so much anymore.
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Chris Rhodes (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:27am

Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Socialism, Fascism, and Communism
All branches from the same rotten tree.
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E. Zachary Knight (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:29am

The problem is not that the students were disruptive, it was that they exhibited independent thought and were questioning authority. We cannot have that in this country and especially not in this education system. The ability to reason and think for one's self is a danger to those that hold power and it must be punished at all cost.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:32am

The poor adults... bullied by children...
One would like to see what records the school is able to provide about incidents of bullying against their students, versus the the actual climate of bullying.

So many people in power now see bullying as something that is a catch-all to solve problems.
Wisecracking kids?! Call them bullys and toss them out.
Kids with behavior issues you don't want to pay to accommodate? Call them bullys and toss them out.

Short of a real clear threat of physical harm from a student to a teacher, to suggest that a child can bully a teacher is silly. If an adult, who makes their living handling children, can't handle children making jokes about them they are in the wrong profession.

Prisoners have more rights and are treated better than students in many districts. There is a serious disconnect in this country, people seem to think if your "in charge" over someone you need to exercise that power at every chance and squash any thought you dislike.
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Lowestofthekeys, 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:38am

Bullying? That seems like an extreme interpretation of what they were actually doing, which is using irony to accentuate the humor of the situation.

Either way, those meme sound like the advice animals (i.e. bachelor frog, advice dog, courage wolf) that are pretty hilarious. So then it begs the question of whether or not they were attempting to incite laughter not mock the teachers for their ability.
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weneedhelp (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:40am

idiots in charge always have been
I put a half cigarette in my jacket pocket. I didnt realize it was still slightly lit. When I got in school my pocket was smoldering.

I got suspended for smoking in school.

True story.
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ZombieBotsFromMars, 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:42am

The kids were off the school's clock and at home when the posts were made; they did something that every generation of public-school inmates have done: mocked their teachers. Boo-hoo for the school.

The public school system in America is a f**king joke. A tool to insure that the next generation continues the molded and outdated thinking and traditions of the previous one. Where free thought and innovation is punished as "bullying" and "disruptive".

And really, "bullying" is getting to be a word that is tossed about way to much. Partly for shock-value, partly cause we've a whole generation of kids that have all the backbone of an amoeba and think that is the world isn't kissing their ass and telling 'em their shit don't stink that they're being "bullied".
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Gwiz (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:44am

Re:
I agree. We should be teaching students to question authority and to think for themselves.

"The younger generation is supposed to rage against the machine, not for it. They're supposed to question authority, not question those who question authority."
- Bill Maher

"Think for yourself and question authority."
- Timothy Leary

"My parents are both college professors, and it made me want to question authority, standards and traditions."
- Maya Lin

"It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority."
- Benjamin Franklin

"The ultimate authority must always rest with the individual's own reason and critical analysis."
- Dalai Lama
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PlagueSD (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:45am

Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Yep "Freedom of Speech" is basically "Fr[censored]ch" now.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:46am

Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Petty tyrants come in all ideological shades, even lolbertarianism, which you seem hellbent on first-post preaching in every thread.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:51am

Re:
EXACTLY. And as I've said for years, the conditioning inherent to the system starts at an early age through stressing the importance of grades and diplomas/degrees over knowledge and application. Add to that the fact that many public schools are now requiring even Pre-K kids to wear school uniforms. We don't teach people to think for themselves and question all that they see. We teach them to believe what you are fed, regurgitate it when ask and conform to do what you are told. It's a veritable lemming factory.
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Dementia (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:52am

I recently saw an image on facebook that contained the following statement:

Our children should be taught HOW to think,
Not WHAT to think!

Seems an appropriate comment for this article.
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Digitari, 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:58am

Re: Patterns
Bullying = Terrorism = war on Drugs = war on Piracy

See the pattern here??

Power to the PEOPLE
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:00am

I do hope the remedy included...
...instantly firing the principal and blacklisting him/her from public service for life.
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Mike C. (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:01am

Stories like this...
Stories like this one really make me appreciate my oldest son's teachers this year. He can be a wise-ass at times, but always with respect. About a month ago in English class, they were directed to write a short letter to someone or something that annoyed them. He asked for permission to write a letter to the assignment itself...

"Dear English Letter Assignment,"

/He got a 95 on the paper
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MonkeyFracasJr (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:03am

Re: its not the 'isms'
The 'isms' by them selves cannot be good or bad (or evil) they have to be seized upon by some petty tyrant or regime who then uses them in name as a cover for their despotic suppression of any poor souls who ind them selves in the tyrant's 'jurisdiction'. You know full well that this can be true of ANY political or religious ideology.

Ideological constructs don't kill people, tyrants do.
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V (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:11am

So typical...
So typical of the heavy handed policies of so many wannabe tyrants in schools.

Schools need an overall. Throw out tenure. Throw out the unions. They serve no one but themselves.

Let teachers and principles all be judged on MERIT. If I did as poor a job as some teachers, I'd be out of a job. In the school system, it takes an act of God to get rid of a teacher, unless they (God forbid) friend one of their students on Facebook... oh wait, an intelligent Judge threw that out.
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PRMan, 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:22am

Senior Production
When I was in school, we had an assembly the seniors would put on for the other classes called the "Senior Production". We actually made fun of the foibles of the teachers in a fashion similar to what the titles here look like and got applause and laughs from students and teachers alike.

Almost 20 years later, I had nothing to do and heard that it was our homecoming game, so I went on a whim. The teachers still remembered my name all that time later, recognized me through facial hair and were genuinely happy to see me, even the same ones that I had made fun of in the assembly.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:28am

It seems to make perfect sense to me. You have these teacher/school administrators teaching students they have no free speech, freedom, etc. Then when they grow up they are complacent and don't fight the further erosion of their rights like SOPA.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:28am

Re: Re:
We need to start by removing the empty grades from the system that makes the diplomas and degrees almost meaningless. The current system of regurgitation in order to receive a passing grade needs to be replaced one where you DEMONSTRATE mastery through application of a concept before you are allowed to proceed to the next concept. There would be no grade system. You simply go to school for the time required and the faster you learn and demonstrate that you can apply, the more you learn. You then would leave school with whatever knowledge you were able to attain while you were there.
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ZombieBotsFromMars, 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:29am

Re: Senior Production
In my highschool (even 20 years later) I'm simply known as "You *point finger*" by my teachers that are still there.

But I know what you're getting at. We made fun of our teachers, and the MOST they did was look at us and say "Go f**k yourself, and by the way you failed your last test have fun in summerschool" and usually then that was only if we went to far with it. I've seen a 60+ year old science teacher slam a junior-year science student with the talent, verbage and grace of George Carlin. And not one of us was carrying on about being "bullied" or "harassed", we just made fun of the a-hole that got his a%% handed to him by a teacher.
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F da Gubmint, 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:32am

Re: So typical...
Good job! You saw a post that was tangentially related to a pet topic of yours and you went for it. You didn't let the topic distract you from the point you wanted to make, and didn't let yourself get sidetracked with facts and evidence supporting your position. For this, I salute you. You're an inspiration to trolls everywhere.
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Greg G (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:37am

Re: Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
"Fr[censored]ch"

Why was my first interpretation of that "French"...
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ZombieBotsFromMars, 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:40am

Re:
I wouldn't be surprised if they outlaws teaching the constitution or started describing it as a "terrorist manifesto". So many people on both sides have forgotten it's basic importance, don't see its relevance, and think it's something that they can cut and paste to fit their own political agendas.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:44am

Re: Stories like this...
I wouldn't have even asked. I would have just written it and if they had a problem with it point them to the rules they put forward in the first place. Good for him though.
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Spaceman Spiff (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:49am

Punish those responsible
If the school system wants to teach these kids a good lesson, it is that one should be responsible for one's own actions. To that end, the teachers and administrators responsible for this incomprehensible action in suspending the students, should be suspended themselves for 3 days without pay, and be demoted in position and seniority. Let the punishment fit the crime! The students committed no crime here, other than being smart-assed teenagers (a normal state of affairs). The teachers and administrators on the other hand violated the students due Constitutional rights under color of authority. In many situations, that is a felony!
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Machin Shin (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:49am

Re: idiots in charge always have been
Are you seriously trying to call school administration idiots while at the same time admitting you went to school with your shirt on fire and didn't notice?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 11:59am

Re: So typical...
The reason there are so many bad teachers is that resources are so strapped for the entire education system and all of the problems ultimately come down to money as all of the solutions to any of the problems ultimately have a monetary cost. The salaries offered to teachers are not nearly high enough to attract and retain quality educators. Of the educators that are there, most are overburdened with having to be surrogate parents to many that haven't had the benefit of proper guidance at home. Furthermore having to try to do more, with less for less is hardly an incentive for excellence.
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Idwal, 9 Apr 2012 @ 12:13pm

Re: Re: Re:
You do even better when you remove the mandatory attendance. Then all the ones who don't want to learn anything can leave and let the rest of us get on with it.
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Idwal, 9 Apr 2012 @ 12:17pm

Re:
Can't we please do both?
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Idwal, 9 Apr 2012 @ 12:24pm

Re: Re: idiots in charge always have been
Are you seriously trying to call his comparison meritless by arguing that the administrator had mental superiority to a kid who didn't notice his shirt was on fire?

Aiming a bit low, isn't it?
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Idwal, 9 Apr 2012 @ 12:27pm

Re:
But, if they grow backbones, then they might become...

GASP!

...Anonymous members!
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Idwal, 9 Apr 2012 @ 12:34pm

Re: Re:
No, it's the Declaration of Independance that's a terrorist manifesto.
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Kathy Jeacoma (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 12:39pm

Here's an idea...
I agree, the term 'bullying' is thrown around way too often to be meaningful-and this situation could have handled way better with a sense of humor-but for those who feel that teachers deserve to be rallied against for trying to assert authority in a system where kids, parents and school admins are against them- why not keep your little darlings at home for the next semester and see how THAT goes? I think every parent who complains about a district's policy should be mandated to serve as a classroom aide before opening their mouths. Teachers have to deal with your kids, you, the state's ridiculous demands of your kid and then MAYBE get signed for another year...I say more parents belong in the school system-in the same classroom with their kid!
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Larry, 9 Apr 2012 @ 12:40pm

Re:
Sorry but "no child left behind" has completely destroyed that entire concept.

Between the teachers unions and the government metrics required to obtain/sustain funding, there is no such thing as a "good" education anymore.
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Pwdrskir (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 12:45pm

Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
This is about the Teacher�s Union, not the students. The above mentioned forms of organizing are centrally planned and executed. With central control, tyranny is inevitable. History tells the full story.

For all you "more govt" people, Europe is in a self-fulfilling death spiral due to �more govt�. When the Spanish bond starts trading above 6%, the rest of the EU will start cannibalizing the system to save themselves.

Capitalism has some bad things, but nothing more competition can�t fix. Tesla, the Wright Brothers, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are all products of the creative destruction of Capitalism. Greed is good as far as true competition is fostered, unlike centrally located Govt pukes who take bribes to slant the playing field. I know, the US has always had Crony Capitalism, so why do the useful idiots want more govt control?

Sports are a perfect example of competitive greed to win as long as the rules are fair to all and the Ref is not bribed to give an unfair advantage.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 1:09pm

I'm outraged!
High school students are being forced to discover that seemingly harmless actions have consequences!

Oh horrors!
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Simple Mind (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 1:13pm

Re:
The only thing missing from the curriculum is waterboarding class.
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Machin Shin (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 1:42pm

Re: Re: Re: idiots in charge always have been
I'm no fan of our current school system. I long ago gave up on it and won't bother boring everyone with details of what I encountered.

I will say though that it does hurt someones credibility when they admit to lighting their shirt on fire and going to school without noticing. Sure the administration at most schools are staffed with idiots but least they are not flaming idiots.
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Eileen (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 1:42pm

Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Fascism yes, the others, it depends. You can have a "Communist" regime that is fascist in nature (in which case the communism is usually window dressing), or you could have one that is not. Same with socialism. I wish people would understand this. YES Stalin, etc. were horrible times but it doesn't mean that e.g., a socialist democracy (where people vote for socialist policies) will be horribly fascist by rule.
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Michael Lockyear, 9 Apr 2012 @ 1:43pm

If they name the school / teachers we can all start making jokes about them (and teach them a lesson re: Streisand effect)...someone must the know the name?
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Michael Lockyear, 9 Apr 2012 @ 1:53pm

If teachers cannot do the job without breaking the law (Constitution = Law) or if they cannot handle the criticism which comes with being public servants (paid for with public funds) they should quit and go work for the private sector and see how THAT goes!
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 1:54pm

Re: I do hope the remedy included...
Pretty much impossible.

See teacher's unions, and if you feel so inclined, watch The Cartel on netflix for an interesting perspective into what is wrong with our schools.

http://movies.netflix.com/Movie/The_Cartel/70138620
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 2:04pm

Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
yet every attempt at Communism has ended in Centralized Fascism... Cambodia, Soviet Union, China (who is now trending to Capitalism), in all the Communism is window dressing used to cover up mass murder and alot of other crap.. but they all started at Communism and all have created mass terror and death (Stalin killed an estimated 60 million, Mao killed even more, Pol Pot wiped out half of his civilian population).
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 2:15pm

Re:
I'll do ya one better.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 2:34pm

Re: I'm outraged!
You obviously don't get it. High School students should be ENCOURAGED to THINK FOR THEMSELVES, openly QUESTION EVERYTHING (including authority), and EXPRESS THEMSELVES CREATIVELY and EFFECTIVELY. That is a major problem we have in this country. We don't teach people to think anymore. Our educational system is designed to condition children to accept what is fed to them through the media by the government and the huge corporations that run it without question.
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AzureSky (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 5:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
human nature to blame, its much like the problems we have in this nation(USA), greed and corruption are rampant, this was true for every "communist" country I have read about.

the problem is, those who seek power in any system tend to be those least suited to have power.

Honestly I have come to think that a lottery system that randomly picks people from the whole nations population would be better then what we have now, 4 year cycle 3 years then the lotto is held and for the next year the new person shadows the one before them to learn the basics, classes in the issues they will be dealing with in their jobs(no voting on stuff you cant understand...you know, for example most of our reps today wouldn't be able to vote on Internet issues)

I have no problem with socialist programs, Infact Im for a system like the NHS here in the states, its not perfect but its better then what we have now.

If thats what the tax paying public wants, we should get it....we are the ones who would be paying for it after all....
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AzureSky (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 5:31pm

Re:
I have read more then one author I respect and heard more then one person I respect say that formal education is only intended to make sure we dont question athority or think outside the box/for our selves, its DESIGNED by its nature to ensure we think the way THEY want us to, they being those in power.

its sad but, it is what it is, I once had a computer sciences prof get so mad at me he said I would never pass his class so i may as well give up my goal to get a computer related degree(he taught classes i would need to pass for any tech related field)

why did he do this, because I proved he was wrong when he challenged his class to fix an "UN-fixable" computer, took me less then 10 min to get it back to fully functional from bsod loop.....he was enraged that i made him look bad in front of the class....

no matter that I have been fixing computers since the apple IIe and had seen far worse then what he did to his system, that didnt matter because in his opinion it wasnt fixable without a full reinstall.....
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Eileen (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 5:43pm

Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Technically, Spain is in a death spiral because they elected a right-wing government that is pushing More Austerity!(TM) as the answer to a shrinking GDP because... because suffering is good? Honestly I don't know but it's an idiotic choice.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 8:02pm

mike wants kids to live in a consequence free world, where they can download files or free all day, someone else can pay for it.....
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Pwdrskir (profile), 9 Apr 2012 @ 8:03pm

Re: Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
So you think spending more money you don't have will help? Crazed Keynesian Socialist alert!

The bond market is telling Spain to stop spending until it can get its economy growing to handle the amount of spending, just like millions of American households do everyday by balancing their budgets.

Austerity measures are taken if there is a threat that a government cannot honor its debt liabilities. Spain can't pay their future debts, so they need to stop spending.
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Rekrul, 9 Apr 2012 @ 8:28pm

If the teachers didn't like what was posted before, wait until they see what those three students post after they graduate!
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I-Blz, 9 Apr 2012 @ 9:29pm

Re: Re:
Ouch! Man, Joe, that's harsh. But still hilarious.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Apr 2012 @ 10:37pm

Re: Here's an idea...
I agree that bad parenting (or rather the lack of parenting) is to blame but it's a vicious cycle. Today's bad parents are a product of a school system that conditioned them to conform and regurgitate instead of think and apply. It's afterall easier to conform than it is to go against the grain. It's also easier to blame the media, the schools and everything else your kids come in contact with than it is to take the responsibility for raising your children. The cycle can be broken but it takes effort and is best attacked on both fronts.
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Bergman (profile), 10 Apr 2012 @ 4:18am

Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Point of order: Communism is the opposite of Capitalism, not the opposite of Democracy.
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Bergman (profile), 10 Apr 2012 @ 4:23am

Re: Re: I do hope the remedy included...
Police and teachers, the two strongest unions in the world, going by how they're able to override any and all laws like they do.
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Bergman (profile), 10 Apr 2012 @ 4:30am

Re: Re: So typical...
Throwing money at a system only works if the people in that system are not hopelessly corrupt and/or incompetent.

A bad apple teacher or two is one thing. But when you have principals whose attitudes towards civil rights and American values would be perfectly at home in North Korea, the system is obviously broken, if not rotten to the core. Someone like that has no business being promoted even once, let alone being in charge of a school.
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Bergman (profile), 10 Apr 2012 @ 4:33am

Re: Punish those responsible
Easier said than done.

Students, after all, don't have a powerful union backing them.
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Bergman (profile), 10 Apr 2012 @ 4:36am

Re: I'm outraged!
Actions have consequences, yes. But those consequences must be in accordance with the law, especially when those consequences are imposed by a government agency, such as a public school.

When those consequences exceed the limits set by law, or are even outright illegal, that's when any right thinking individual feels, as you put it, Oh horrors!
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Bergman (profile), 10 Apr 2012 @ 4:51am

Re:
Obvious troll is obvious.

If you have to stretch THAT far to make an irrelevant point, you have to reconsider whether it's worth trying at all.

But on the off-chance you're just an idiot: What the school did was illegal. A federal crime. We don't execute jaywalkers by burning at the stake, and we don't punish people for exercising rights. We're at least theoretically a country ruled by laws, not tyrants.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Apr 2012 @ 6:38am

Re: Re: Re: So typical...
I agree that throwing money at it isn't the solution and those in charge should be replaced. However, overcrowded classrooms mean the need for more teachers which means increased expense. Poor teacher pay means the number high quality teachers available are limited and little incentive for any of them to improve. Programs to address the issues caused by the lack of parenting also require additional funding to be affective. So increased funding has to be part of the equation. Personally, I think it should come directly from the private sector that directly benefits from the availability of highly educated individuals entering the workforce once they depart the educational system.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Apr 2012 @ 6:41am

Re: Re: Re:
Actually systems like that are quite useful.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Apr 2012 @ 6:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"No child left behind" is the wrong approach. Give them all the help they need and seek, but ultimately you have to be willing to leave the ones who won't learn behind.
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hegemon13, 10 Apr 2012 @ 7:14am

Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Um, how exactly could a tyrant possibly be a libertarian? Libertarianism is the opposing pole of authoritarianism. It is, by definition, impossible to be a libertarian dictator.
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hegemon13, 10 Apr 2012 @ 7:26am

Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
The problem is that socialism at the government level requires government enforcement. A socialist democracy sounds great until you realize it is really just a tyranny of the majority: 51% of the people extracting whatever they desire from the other 49%. Or even 90/10. It is a use of force to compel individuals to conform and contribute to a system they oppose. That is why the US was founded as a republic, and more importantly, a republic limited by inalienable human rights. In other words, if 95% of the people voted against the human rights of the 5%, the 5% would still be protected.

All attempts at socialist governments have become oppressive simply because the oppressiveness of a government is in direct correlation with the power it is given. A socialist government is necessarily very centralized and very powerful.

But you are right, in a sense. Socialism is not evil. Socialism paired with government is evil. Voluntary socialist societies exist, and are generally perfectly functional. Communes or monasteries would be one example of voluntary socialism, where the members join by choice because of their personal desire, not because the are compelled by the force of government. Voluntary socialism would most likely look like a lot of smaller territories providing varying levels of cost and service, which individuals could choose to join or leave at will. Oh, wait a minute. That sounds a lot like state or local government. Too bad they've all been overridden by the federal government.
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Jonathan, 10 Apr 2012 @ 7:36am

Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Republicans would love this, but only if they could beat the kids (and then secretly masturbate about it later).
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Jonathan, 10 Apr 2012 @ 7:40am

Re: Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Aside from the freedom to be corrupt and corrupting, most liberties in the USA are figments of marketers' imaginations.
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Jonathan, 10 Apr 2012 @ 7:48am

Re: So typical...
I know it disagrees with your wealth-worshipping Republican worldview, but management IS the problem here, NOT the solution. A non-Republican school administrator would have told the teachers to suck it up.
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Jonathan, 10 Apr 2012 @ 7:51am

Re: Re:
What's this "both sides" nonsense you're babbling about? Whenever I see two tribes with about equal numbers of troops polarized against each other in zero-sum conflict, I look to find who gains power from that conflict. Usually it's the 1%.
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Jonathan, 10 Apr 2012 @ 7:54am

Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
In the game of life, the winners write the rules for their own benefit and then ignore them as much as they think they can get away with (and usually are right).

Nice little fantasy though. You may return to your Randian wanking now.
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hegemon13, 10 Apr 2012 @ 8:08am

Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Psst. Your bigotry is showing.
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hegemon13, 10 Apr 2012 @ 8:10am

Re: Re:
Sure there is. A private one.
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Pwdrskir (profile), 10 Apr 2012 @ 10:06am

Re: Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Typical personal, troll-like attack with a non-argument rebuttal from the lame.

People take control of their destiny and rewrite rules. Steve Jobs is a perfect example and says it better than I or anyone of your limited understanding of what winning means.

"You have to be run by ideas, not hierarchy. The best ideas have to win." � Steve Jobs / Strong believer in Capitalism.
http://www.pbs.org/programs/steve-jobs-one-last-thing/
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Pwdrskir (profile), 10 Apr 2012 @ 10:20am

Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Typical troll, straw-man deflection.

No mention that the students� rights are being infringed upon by an overbearing Teacher�s Union that doesn�t like what students are saying on their own time.
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Jamie, 10 Apr 2012 @ 5:56pm

Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
Capitalism works to some extent, but as with anything else, once you get past a certain point it all starts to break down.

The problem with pure Capitalism is that it's about the expansion of personal wealth above all else. It ignores the fact that what may be good for the self is often counter-productive for the economy as a whole.

Take environmental laws as an example. While they push up the cost of doing business, they're needed to ensure that the earth is not polluted to the point where it fails to sustain life. If it was not for those laws, can you imagine how polluted various parts of the world would be?

The only way to have a sustainable economy is to find a balance between all of the ideologies. Encourage free-market capitalism, but don't let it run rampant. Socialise anything that's used by the populace as a whole, but keep watch to make sure that it doesn't become inefficient. Let people have the liberty to run their own lives, but with sufficient boundaries to prevent anarchy.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Apr 2012 @ 8:52am

Re: idiots in charge always have been
You shouldn't have cigarettes in school because schools have drug free laws. And if you were listening in health class, cigarettes are drugs. You should get suspended because not only are you violating the drug free law, you are also causing other people to inhale second hand smoke that they do not wish to inhale.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Apr 2012 @ 8:59am

Yeah sure free speech, it's a spectacular tool that I think all people have a right to have. But as a teacher, I do not get the right to free speech. If I posted something about a student on a blog or facebook, I would be FIRED. That is the real world. In reality some people in society DO NOT have the same rights as other people. That is life, and yes I do not believe that America is the "free" nation that we proclaim to be. Freedom in totality cannot exist because the world is not perfect. So if the students learned that in the real world you can only speak "satirically" or "ironically" about certain people in certain situations, then the students learned a good lesson. If they want to go be writers, the so be it, get published and have someone pay you money for you satire.
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 11 Apr 2012 @ 9:32am

Re:
You should be fired for your attitude. What kind of ass-backwards thought process brings you to the conclusion that one has to be a "writer" to use satire? Ignoring the fact that you're not making any sense, let's say that only writers can use satire; wouldn't a good place to learn to be a writer be in school?

If you really are a teacher, and I really hope you're not, the last thing you should be doing is discouraging harmless creativity.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences; you somehow managed to get that right, but last I checked, making fun of someone wasn't illegal.

If an adult can't handle a harmless meme joke by a few children, then we should be investigating the mental stability of the adult, not punishing the children.
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weneedhelp (profile), 12 Apr 2012 @ 2:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: idiots in charge always have been
"but least they are not flaming idiots." - Now that's funny right there.
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weneedhelp (profile), 12 Apr 2012 @ 2:46pm

Re: Re: idiots in charge always have been
I was 16. Anyone can have a stupid moment. Except you I guess.

"your shirt on fire" [Pictures blazing on fire jacket]

Smoldering is the operative word there bud. No flames, no fire.
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Pwdrskir (profile), 16 Apr 2012 @ 11:13am

Re: Re: Re: Wow! I guess the government schools don't want free speech.
The main problem with your argument is that Capitalism requires creative destruction and greed(competition to win), as Steve Jobs stated "You have to be run by ideas, not hierarchy. The best ideas have to win." His strong belief in Capitalism has done more to change the world than any Socialist/Communist program ever. He wanted to win and did.

As more Govt becomes involved, Capitalism breaks down and steals wealth from the likes of Steve Jobs. Capitalism can exist without Govt and does every day on Craigslist, but Socialism is dependent on Monopolies of Govt to work.
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weneedhelp (profile), 25 Apr 2012 @ 10:01am

Re: Re: idiots in charge always have been
First off, when I was in school, the USA had tough skin and weren't pussies insulted by everything.

Secondly,
"you are also causing other people to inhale second hand smoke that they do not wish to inhale."
You want smoke free air outside, carry an oxygen tank. I was not smoking inside fool.

"You should get suspended because not only are you violating the drug" Nicotine is not a controlled substance, nor is it illegal. You should get smacked for being such an idiot.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Apr 2012 @ 2:51pm

we have lost a whole generation of people who want to live in a world with no consequences, we are doomed as a country
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