How Much Would It Cost To Pre-Screen YouTube Videos? About $37 Billion Per Year...
from the copyright-does-not-scale dept
Last week we reported that videos were currently being uploaded to YouTube at the rate of 72 hours every minute, and asked how anybody could expect Google to pre-screen such a deluge. Techdirt Insider xenomancer has gone a little further by working out how much it would cost to screen that material for potential copyright infringement, doubtless something the media industries would love to see imposed.
Most of the calculation is straightforward, but there's one key variable: the kind of person who will do the screening. You can't just use random people off the street, or starving artists, or bored software engineers, because the crucial question they must answer is: does too much of this video infringe on somebody's copyright? Only one class of person is qualified to answer that, and hence to take on this job: judges. Or, more specifically:horribly underpaid judges who happen to be extremely efficient at determining the copyright status of each video they watch and choose, of the little free will they have, to consider all video uploaded.Using the fact that the average pay for a judge in Silicon Valley is apparently $177,454, and that based on the volume of uploads and number of hours in a working day, a mere 199,584 judges would be required as screeners, this gives us the final figure for the cost of checking properly those 72 hours per minute:
$36,829,468,840 per year.Interestingly, Google's revenue for 2011 was $37,905,000,000.
Absurd as this calculation may be, it does reveal the key problem with unthinking calls for YouTube videos to be pre-screened for possible infringement: only suitably-qualified individuals can do that, and eventually you run out of them. In other words, attempts to police rigorously online materials are doomed to fail by the nature of the copyright system itself. Basically, copyright does not scale.
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But they can make up the difference by suing every single person that uploads an image they can't prove they have permission to upload.
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Its the old "freedom of speech for everyone that agrees with me" and "freedom of religion for all the christians and no one else" line of reasoning.
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Re: absolute nonense
so prove to me filtering does not work, just post FIVE active links to porn on youtube and I'll believe you...
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Re: Re: absolute nonense
Keep reading through the comments and you'll see explanations of the differences between porn and copyright infringement. Amazingly, they are not very similar.
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What problem? and if there really is a problem then why don't you solve it then? Why should everyone else solve your alleged problems for you?
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They want the service?
Just have Google send the media companies or RIAA/MPAA a bill for services rendered for full screening of uploaded content.
Make sure it's a monthly bill... and, just like any other billing company does, stop the service after the end of the 1st month of non-payment.(If Google wants to be that generous, that is)
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issue solved.
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Re: They want the service?
Should Websites Charge A Fee To Process Copyright Takedowns?
http://torrentfreak.com/should-websites-charge-a-fee-to-process-copyright-takedowns-1205 28/
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You don't say?.jpeg
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"Sorcerer"?
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They already have that, for instance, on Youtube. I guess you haven't been paying attention to Techdirt long enough.
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 29th, 2012 @ 11:32pm
so probably there is a lot of private nasty stuff. but to get a google / youtube account you have to give certain information that could be traced to the uploader - so uploading illegal films may not happen so much??
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This has been discussed countless times, and yet people always bring it up again and again. It's easy to make a determination on what's porn pretty quickly. You don't need to be a legal expert, and anyone can do the flagging.
Copyright, not so much. You have no idea if the upload was authorized. You have no idea if the upload is fair use or parody or anything else. Those are things that can only be determined by a judge. With porn, there is no equivalent of "fair use" or "authorized vs. unauthorized." You can't let the public flag whether or not something is infringing, because they have no idea of the provenance. So while you can effectively "crowdsource" a porn filter, that's impossible with copyright.
The comparison is apples and oranges.
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Apples don't do that but they just don't have the zing.
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You're not suggesting that a judge's ruling is required to remove infringing content from YouTube? As you know, that's not how DMCA works.
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Just because DMCA is an existing law doesn't mean it is right and isn't terrible. The DMCA takedown process is a tool that doesn't work all too well. Like most free people, Techdirt can criticize existing laws.
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No one said you need a judge's ruling to remove content. They said you need a judge's ruling to determine if it's infringing.
I get the sense that you have no problem with massive collateral damage of removing non-infringing works. That's pretty sad.
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I get the sense that you have no problem with massive collateral damage of infringing works. That's pretty sad.
You're a gigantic buffoon, Masnick. The asshat of the internet.
I hope Google's astro-turf frontages are paying you well, although in my instance, no amount of money would ever be worth sacrificing my reputation.
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Well, AC, you have to have a reputation to sacrifice in the first place. You clearly do not. Nor, do I figure, have you ever. So there's no worry about being offered money to sacrifice what you have always and will always lack. (I'd add intelligence to that as well.)
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and, to wit, youtube has done a great job of employing such filtering methods and get's better everyday. so it is a contradiction of those who keep shouting that it can't be done. it can be, and it is... as youtube raises the bar it also raises the bar for everyone else who claims it can't be done.
humans make technology. humans solve problems. humans create laws. humans enforce laws. last time I checked, we are as yet not under the rule of computers and robots who have taken dominion over us...
Ian Rogers "Get's It"...
http://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2012/01/how-about-this-instead-of-sopa-my-proposal-for-legisl ation-to-proactively-combat-piracy-while-encour-1-1.html
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so again, it's hard to take people seriously that are obviously lying.
It's only a question of will, not a question of capability as YouTube itself is proving...
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I also think Youtube should to treat everyone equally so whatever advanced tools it gives to the major film studios need to be available to the average person.
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There is supposed to be reasonable effort made to make sure they didn't randomly target things, and penalties if you abuse it.
The problem is in practice the rightholders are getting what they want well outside of the scope of the law. They threaten to sue to get their way, and special treatment that isn't part of the law is demanded and given... and it is never enough.
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That's exactly how the DMCA process works. Only a judge can force a video to be pulled from Youtube. If Google wants to voluntarily remove a video, via ContentID, a DMCA notice, or some other method, that is entirely their choice in the matter. If Google wishes to accept liability that a video is not infringing, they don't have to remove anything when they recieve a DMCA notice.
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This. A thousand times *this*.
Hundreds and thousands of Youtube video is pulled "voluntarily" from the site every day and there is effectively no judicial oversight on the process. Tens of thousands of fraudulent DMCA notices are sent "under penalty of perjury" with exactly zero penalty.
This is horribly broken. You hit the nail on the head, AC.
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Thanks for jumping in to piss and moan about the DMCA. Your friends at Google were key architects of the DMCA and now find it a burden. That's tough.
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DMCA voted on and passed in the House: August 4th, 1998
Google founded: September 14th, 1998
DMCA passed the Senate: September 17th, 1998
Signed into law: October 28th, 1998
I grant you that it's possible Sergey and Larry spent the days just prior to starting Google architecting the DMCA, but I doubt it.
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You're welcome. You really seemed to be having a hard time getting the point, so I'm glad I could help.
The assertion is that only a judge can determine what is infringing.
Exactly. Now you get it.
The counterpoint is that infringing material is removed all of the time without a judge.
Wait. What? How do you know this? Who determined it was infringing? I'm pretty sure only a judge can do that. You said so above. I'm pretty sure a lot of material is removed that is alleged to be infringing. If it ever got to a judge, who knows? I do know that there are a lot of false positives. I don't care how good Google's coders are, they can't and never will replace an actual judge. It's a shame that those darn monopolists are hindering innovation and culture and that the law is written to support that. Don't you agree?
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/badvectorcalculusjoke
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You're not suggesting that active filtering is the same thing as notice-and-takedown are you? As you know, that's not how the DMCA works.
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and that's your first mistake, you assume that IP extremists know anything. No matter how much something is repeated over and over they never learn.
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The DMCA allows a copyright holder to alert the service provider that they believe a work is infringing. But that is just part of the process, and DOES NOT confirm that a work is infringing. Only a judge can do that.
And, as others have noted, nothing in the DMCA requires that upon notice you remove a work, and nothing in it means that the work is automatically infringing.
The issue is that if you're asking a third party to determine, without input from the copyright holder, if a work is infringing, you're going to need a judge.
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Well, that and the fact that only the copyright owner has the right to make an accusation of copyright theft.
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the bottom line is, this is a question of will not capability. all that is required is the will to solve the problem, as the problem itself is not unsolvable.
and, to wit, youtube has done a great job of employing such methods and get's better everyday. so it is a contradiction of those who keep shouting that it can't be done. it can be, and it is.
humans make technology. humans solve problems. humans create laws. humans enforce laws. last time I checked, we are as yet not under the rule of computers and robots who have taken dominion over us...
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If there were such a master database, and no such thing as fair use, and Google could tell exactly who their uploaders are, that would probably work. But none of those conditions are true.
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so it's really not that far off...
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If you want to speculate about what might happen in the future, go ahead, but you should have some sound reasoning as to why you think something is going to happen if you want to convince anyone.
and fair use doesn't come into the equation really
Oh? Why is that?
and google does know who the uploaders are...
Do they now? If someone from Paramount signed up for a YouTube account and uploaded some Star Trek, Google would be able to tell who that is? How, exactly?
As you said, it's hard to take seriously people who are lying (or just tremendously wrong).
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The answer is that they use software that focuses on skin tone and a few other things. Copyrighted motion pictures use watermarks. The goofball claiming that it would cost $37 billion is obviously a former member of the of the anti-SOPA "truth squad" trying to create some new lies that will be packaged as facts by the piracy apologists, freeloaders and sundry parasites.
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Hey idiot, if such a process worked, they would be using it already.
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Under the current ContentID system, no. But to pre-screen everything manually would cost far more than $37 billion, which is the point being made. Stop being an idiot and changing the subject. The point of the article isn't to determine the cost of ContentID, the purpose is to determine the cost of pre - screening everything manually and to show that such is infeasible and so shouldn't be a requirement.
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He's said so in the comments on numerous occasions.
You poor pathetic ACs. Your insults suck and your trolling isn't much better, especially since you can't back up any of your statements with facts. As for "Stooge of the Day", I think it should be "Stooge for Life", and that award was handed to you the day you were born.
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The same thing applies to infringing content. The content isn't (all) pre-screened, it's flagged as infringing by anyone claiming infringement after being uploaded. Then Google may screen it.
I don't know why this is a question even worth asking.
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Copyright however, is a much more abstract concept than nudity. There is no simple algorithm for detecting it.
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Hell, it'll probably even pay for a couple of those $200m movies...
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They probably fear it doesn't make them look good in the debate to be whining (or seen as whining) about how much it costs them to deal with copyright issues. It could play into the maximalists' argument: see? Google just wants copyright infringement to be easier and cheaper!
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We have bills right now giving more money for Government Agencies to act as their private police force.
We have a federal lawsuit sitting in the weeds, violating the law, screwing over innocent bystanders, all to make the cartels happy.
We have a young man facing being extradited from his home country to face breaking the laws of a country he never set foot in, while his actions have never been deemed as in violation of his homeland.
We have voiced silenced as websites are seized on the demands of the cartels, who can't backup their claims or be bothered to provide evidence.
We live in a world where a birdsong is flagged as infringing not once but twice, and there is no penalty for the reporter lying.
We have a newspaper facing being censored from being found via a search engine because part of its name matched a motion picture title, and even an 8 yr old could tell you they aren't the same thing.
Copyrights are not worth all of this misery visited on the rest of us to make some corporations "happy". They seek to extract more money from services shown to stem the tide, forcing them to be less useful while bemoaning the situation they put themselves into and making it worse.
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That is of course if google paid for all monitoring, but the search engines could easily work together to monitor and removal all infringing material.
The employment of 199,584 judges would help to boost the economy therefore increase ad revenues to google, thereby helping to defray the costs relating to their responsibilities.
Google's motto is don't be evil and if helping to prevent pirates from destroying the various entertainment industries isn't the very epitome of that motto then I don't know what is, while standing by and doing as little as they can possibly get away with to prevent it is in fact being evil.
It's like a city refusing to pay for stop lights and signs claimed to not be being evil because it isn't actively encouraging people to be run down on the street.
A billion is surely plenty for google to make for providing a search engine service and some free email accounts. When they start making major blockbuster films, top albums, complex software and videogames then they can start claiming some right to benefitting from them being made available for free by pirates and linking to those.
As people have pointed out before, if google wanted it could buy at least one major record label, games company, even movie studios but it doesn't and why not?
Because the return on that is a lot less than return achieved from the eyeballs delivered to google by the pirates.
Equally, google could protect the sanctity of marriage by not linking to gay sites like disney and could prevent terrorism by removing links to all sites in foreign languages or hosted outside the US.
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then would 37 billion a year in cost be a good investment.
Why not pay Google 37 billion to setup such a system and pocket the extra 213 billion.
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That fact that Viacom failed proves they are not complicit by the legal definition.
Which comes back to the same point why not just pay 37 billion and pocket the extra 213 billion.
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I hear that some of your neighbors have had 'problems' with Persuasion, that have resulted in them taking extended vacations in the nearest hospital...
It would be 'terrible' if something like that happened to you, wouldn't it?
For only 10% of your gross revenue, I can 'protect' you from being Persuaded by any other thugs, I mean lobbiests...
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In many respects that is what ContentID is supposed to do. Perhaps Google should be setting up a relationship with the MPAA and RIAA. For every item blocked by ContentID it is considered a "lost sale" that is being recovered. As a result Google obtains a "finders" fee of 10% of the recovered sale.
This finders fee would go towards the creation of new technology to "recover" lost sales for other industries like tourism (all those pictures about Hawaii are stopping people from going to Hawaii) and the restaurant industry (all those pictures about food are stopping people from going to restaurants). There is precedent for this, after all we've told the tobacco industry to post pictures of people who have had bad things happen to them due to smoking.
Congratulations, fairusefriendly, I think you've hit upon a revenue stream that sees no realistic limit.
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btw if you were being sarcastic "good one"
you really need to put the sarcasm sign link at the bottom of the post.
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See!
/sarc
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The complete lack of awareness that statement demonstrates is so mind blowing that it umm... eh... blew my mind.
"Hello, Mr Tiddles... Do you want some nice fish?"
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There's no need to prescreen-- just give us good enforcement mechanisms
But they would rather collect their ill-gotten ad revenue and put up insanely complicated firewalls that require the copyright holders to jump through hoop after hoop. That's the only way to keep the content coming for free.
Then they bamboozle the kids into thinking they're getting away with something by uploading "remixes" which are just music videos created with unlicensed copies of the music mixed with unlicensed photos. If the kids are told this is "cool" and they're not supposed to do it, the kids will frantically do the work for free! Then Big Search's owners can collect their billions. Isn't the digital economy great?!
So no. It won't cost $34b to screen them all. All YouTube needs to do is make it easier for the rightsholder to track the users by releasing the information about the uploader without a fight.
In fact, why not require people to log in and certify that the video is their own creation? Isn't this Internet party all about encouraging the creators who were ignored by the mainstream media? If YouTube would only get people to certify that the videos are their own creation -- and punish the people who lie-- we might actually converge on what the Internet is supposed to be.
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Re: There's no need to prescreen-- just give us good enforcement mechanisms
They certify that they own the copyright under penalty of perjury and still end up claiming that a page on the san francisco chronicle infringes on the movie chronicle despite there being nothing to do with the movie on the page and having no content of anykind that the rightsholder has any claim to.
If experienced rightsholders can't get it right and aren't punished do you think it is more likely that ordinary people will get it right, or is it just that you would be far more certain that when they got it wrong, they'd be severely punished?
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Re: There's no need to prescreen-- just blame Google
Also, in short you want access to everything that a search engine has and essentially no due process as long as it might make things a little harder for you to get something taken down. No dice.
But then again, this is paywall bob, right? Whose definition of an argument is comparing Rebecca Black to the Beatles and rationalising that since she's not as rich as them, the Internet must be a failure (and even getting her song name wrong and calling her an "Internet darling")? We all know you're full of manure.
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I don't know about you, but I certainly don't want mounties crashing through my window, throwing syrup-bottle wielding beavers at my head to stop me from slandering what is certainly a nice, peaceful country, that could never do anything wrong.
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Now where's my internets?
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Re: There's no need to prescreen-- just give us good enforcement mechanisms
How is this not exactly what we have now?
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Re: There's no need to prescreen-- just give us good enforcement mechanisms
So what happens when people click that button, but they don't, in fact, "own" it? Will punishment be enforced? Such a clause isn't being currently enforced for DMCA takedowns, as evidenced by the Chronicle issue. Of course, if it's not a big studio making the claim, I'm sure the perpetrator will be punished swiftly and harshly...
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Re: Re: There's no need to prescreen-- just give us good enforcement mechanisms
Weren't you one of the people insisting Google was the driving force behind stopping SOPA? If it's true that they're going to protect their content like crazy, then wouldn't they have wanted that mechanism? Just curious how the world works in this fantasyland you appear to live in.
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Re: Re: Re: There's no need to prescreen-- just give us good enforcement mechanisms
And clearly you understand that laws like SOPA compel. Google and others can engage in voluntary activity that will accomplish the same thing.
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Re: There's no need to prescreen-- just give us good enforcement mechanisms
The should turn over all your data? Based on what? Accusations from a interested parties that are famous for overclaiming rights and attacking people that didn't break the law?
Tell me that even you, bob, can see the problem with that...
why not require people to log in and certify that the video is their own creation?
I guess because they already do that, and doing it twice wouldn't change anything?
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Re: There's no need to prescreen-- just give us good enforcement mechanisms
Oh yes, the hoops required by law by the DMCA, the law that YOUR INDUSTRY pushed congress for and got enacted against the wishes of the public and everyone except hollywood. Sorry, you reap what you sow.
Getting really sick of you and your distorted lies like this. This sort of "tell a big enough lie often enough" is how Hitler and the Nazi's got started. (Godwins Law alert!)
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Second, The issue of cost to YouTube could be resolved very easily by doing one very simple thing: Only allowing approved accounts to upload.
Youtube's problem is in the fact that it allows anonymous uploading (you get a disposible email and bobs your uncle), which means that the uploaders feel no compulsion to even try to be legal. Also,
Thirdly, that number would suggest that the videos were watch end to end, slowly and carefully. Unless you are going for an absolute 100% level of accuracy, it would be much easier to skip through the video, checking out the music used, the video source, etc. I doubt that a 10 minute video would require someone to watch all 10 minutes of it.
Seem that the number is bullshit, and seems like an attempt to ass cover for the impending storm... yes, SOPA like laws will get passed, perhaps not all in one place, but they will happen and YouTube / Google will find themselves on the hook.
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Wow. I'm glad you're not a judge!
"Ehhh whatevs, I get the idea - let's move on to sentencing."
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Why does it have anything to with being a judge? Are you daft?
The idea is to pre-screen and get rid of the obviously offending material, to cut down on what is out there. Reviewing the videos for content should be part of the game. They are publishing the stuff, shouldn't they be somewhat responsible?
If the business model doesn't work when you are responsibly, perhaps the business model is broken?
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There is no such thing as "obviously" offending material. You have no idea if it was uploaded with authorization or not.
They are publishing the stuff, shouldn't they be somewhat responsible?
No, they are hosting it. Publishing requires proactive decision making. That's kind the crux of the whole issue.
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Umm, the work is copyright. Was it the copyright holder uploading it, yes or no?
If your answer is anything other than CERTAINLY YES, then you don't put it online until you know.
Generally, few people have the rights to distribute content legally. A music video? I know who has the rights. Songs from a band's album with "lyrics added" by Paul92838393, I am pretty sure he doesn't have the rights. It's not hard.
It's only hard if you try really hard to make it so.
"No, they are hosting it. Publishing requires proactive decision making. That's kind the crux of the whole issue."
Actually, in naked hosting, there would a URL to see the file, and nothing more. That Youtube indexes content, displays it on pre-made pages, surrounds it with advertising, and so on is something much more than just hosting.
let me ask you: Does your hosting company take your posts and put them inside it's own format, putting it's own ads, and showing related or popular posts that it feels users would enjoy? Do they sort and index your content for easy user viewing? Do they allow people to embed your posts?
Nope. They are a hosting company. Youtube is a publishing organisation, sourcing it's content from users for free. Would you consider a magazine that used only user submitted articles to be a publication? What if it was available online too? What if it was only online? Why would you feel there is a difference, if the intent is the same?
Remember: File locker sites lost their popularity as soon as people couldn't "share" their files with others. It shows that those site's business models were not based on hosting or storage, but purely on distribution. Youtube is the same, it's not based on hosting, it's based on distribution.
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Heh. Did you see how Viacom uploaded videos *legally* under names just like that?
Yeah. That's the point.
Nope. They are a hosting company. Youtube is a publishing organisation, sourcing it's content from users for free. Would you consider a magazine that used only user submitted articles to be a publication? What if it was available online too? What if it was only online? Why would you feel there is a difference, if the intent is the same?
Oh, I see. You don't understand shit about the internet. I'm done with this conversation.
I didn't realize who you are. Now I know. Too bad, I thought you'd finally lived up to your promise to leave the site.
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If your answer is anything other than CERTAINLY YES, then you don't put it online until you know.
Sure, but the question you're asking is obviously a question for the Youtube account holder since they are in a much better position to make this call. Youtube the company has no way to know if the person uploading is the copyright holder or was otherwise authorized by the copyright holder. Youtube handles this the way you would expect them to. They tell you in the terms of service not to upload without authorization. If you choose to ignore this rule, Youtube could cancel your account or even go after you for breach of contract. I don't know what else you can reasonably expect them to do.
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Actually, on a site designed for home-made videos, I bet a heck of a lot of people have rights to distribute content. With the music video example, how do you know the video wasn't released under creative commons or the public domain. If you determine such-and-such studio is the copyright holder, how do you know who their authorized agents are, any of whom might have legally uploaded the video? We haven't even talked about fair-use which even allows for whole copying of the work in some cases.
Actually, in naked hosting, there would a URL to see the file, and nothing more. That Youtube indexes content, displays it on pre-made pages, surrounds it with advertising, and so on is something much more than just hosting.
A lot of CMS do the same thing. This isn't the 90's where every web page is a static file. There's databases which automatically index content. That the CMS and page theme have already been chosen simply reflects the fact that this is a video hosting service, not a straight web-hosting one. The difference is with a hosting company (Youtube), everything that's done with the content is completely automated and evenly applied whereas a publisher is looking at each work and making creative decisions about how to handle them.
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>Umm, the work is copyright. Was it the copyright holder uploading it, yes or no?
If your answer is anything other than CERTAINLY YES, then you don't put it online until you know.
If it was so obviously offending Viacom wouldn't have demanded a takedown of content they uploaded themselves. The answer in this case was CERTAINLY YES, and look what happened.
If even the original rightsholder doesn't even have a handle on their own content why the fuck should the hosting service know better?
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um... yeah they would have to watch the entire video. How else would they find that 10 second snippet of their copyright protected content playing in the background of that video on how to style your daughter's hair? c'mon!
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And how, precisely, would said account be approved?
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Horse Hockey
If each uploaded video were automatically mirrored to servers owned by content owners (these servers could be located near to youtube's servers to save bandwidth costs), then the content owner's servers could automatically scan each video to see if frames or audio closely match their content. An automatic algorithm with tunable heuristics could determine the percentage of possible infringement. Anything that exceeds the threshold gets flagged and reviewed. Since content owners would provide their own servers, they could control what stuff they want to police.
You guys are naive.
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Re: Horse Hockey
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Re: Horse Hockey
No, the media industry's copyrights do NOT entitle them to private copies of videos copyrighted by individuals and other companies. In fact, Google would be liable if they were to allow such mass infringement of their users' copyrights. If you turn your argument around, it would be demanding that everyone should be entitled to a private copy of every movie that Hollywood has made, just to be sure that their copyrights hasn't been infringed upon. It would only be fair, right?
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Re: Horse Hockey
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Screen youtube video
An obvious way out is to only screen for registered material, only allow OWNERS of registered coyrights to file for take downs and not allow photos to be screened or taken down.
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So they would need only 20,000 full time judges at $3.6 billion (at minimum) per year. This seems OK to you?
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For every 10 laws you pass, 1 law would suffice.
For every amount of enforcement you demand, a tenth of that enforcement would suffice.
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at least you seem acknowledge that requiring every video be fully screened and researched shouldn't be a requirement. That's a step in the right direction.
and your post is hardly insightful. You are likely not disciplined and knowledgeable enough (since knowledge requires discipline and IP extremists are too lazy to even click through links) to provide technocrats far superior than you, intellectually, with much insight. That you would even think calling yourself 'insightful' will be viewed as anything but retarded by others shows how retarded you are. You can't simply assert the insightfulness of your own comments or your own insightfulness, that must be earned and is best evaluated by others, not you. That you seem to lack this basic understanding makes you look silly.
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Massive overestimate
Screening material is no "rocket science" development - but it might cut into company profits. very sad for that but necessary.
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Re: Massive overestimate
Even if that number you pulled straight from your butt is close to correct, the other 5% will take far longer to research than just watching it. Many, many times longer. So the cost could perhaps be less than indicated, but it would be billions of dollars a year in any case, and growing.
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