Man Who Raped 14-Year-Old Sentenced To 30 Days In Jail Because Girl Looked Kinda Old And The Internet Is Mean
from the well-okay-then dept
We've seen ridiculous requests and results stemming from the concept of how "mean" the internet is. Recall that Prenda Law wanted all manner of documents sealed because the internet was a cruel, cruel place. To be fair, it isn't like we haven't seen our share of stories about jerks on the web. Still, I'm pretty sure the internet housing a bunch of meanie poopy-heads probably shouldn't factor into the decision to have a former high school teacher who raped a 14 year old girl serve only 30 days in jail.
Now, I know what you're thinking: that didn't happen. A guy did not rape a 14 year old student and then only do a month in the pen. Sorry, you're wrong, and the reasons for it are as absurd as they come.
A Yellowstone County district judge Monday ordered a former Senior High teacher convicted of raping a 14-year-old female student who later committed suicide to spend 30 days in jail. Judge G. Todd Baugh sentenced Stacey Dean Rambold to 15 years in prison, with all but 31 days suspended, for sexual intercourse without consent.Okay, let's take these in order. First, doesn't even 15 years for a teacher raping a student seem on the light side, particularly when that student subsequently killed herself? Secondly, reducing the sentence from 15 years to 30 days for any reason is insane, but when those reasons are that the rapist has lost his family and job while suffering the wrath of a pissed off internet, the justice train has gone off the rails somewhere. One would think any stories of the internet being so cruel to Captain Rapey as to warrant a reduced sentence would have made it into the public light without the defense attorney's help. To even make this argument is an insult to our concept of justice and accountability.
Rambold's attorney, Jay Lansing, argued Monday for the suspended sentence. He said Rambold lost his career, his marriage and his home and has suffered a "scarlet letter of the Internet" as a result of publicity about the case. The judge also said Morales was "older than her chronological age."
Finally, what the hell difference does it make that the girl may have looked older than her peers? Several news pieces on this story have shown the young lady, who certainly did look mature for her age, and I can imagine some nightmare scenario in which an adult unwittingly hooks up with a mature looking young person who is underage and faces the wrath of the court as a result, but this isn't that scenario. Rambold taught at the girl's school and had every reason to know and/or believe that her age should have come into question, setting aside entirely the fact that teachers probably shouldn't be banging their students no matter what age they are.
The internet can be a cruel world, but it isn't as cruel as a teacher raping a 14-year-old girl. It just isn't.
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Filed Under: internet, punishment, rape, students, teachers
Reader Comments
The First Word
“Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This is sick...
please stop speaking of logic and science, they dont want to hear it, they want blood, they want vengeance, that want his guts on a stick....sadly im not kidding about that, I wonder when one of these guys is gonna make the news for murdering people they find on the sex offender registry.....with how they talk, its only a matter of time.
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This is sick...
What the holy fucking hell, Batman?!
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As for whether the sentence is appropriate in this case... at least people could read the article before commenting on how outrageous this is. Surely Techdirt readers should know better than to leap to conclusions on something this serious without doing that much research?
Some more facts gleaned from the article:
- the girl committed suicide some 2-3 years after the relationship (as the trial was dragging on),
- the case was put on hold, with an agreement to dismiss the charges, if the defendant agreed to complete a sex offender treatment program,
- the case was resumed when he was kicked off the program for "minor" violations, including being alone with some of his family, and being in a relationship without telling the staff,
- the judge found that these reasons weren't enough to warrant a lengthy prison sentence (particularly as the defendant had completed a course elsewhere).
- Perhaps most importantly, an evaluation found he was a low risk of re-offending and could be treated by the community.
So, maybe a month is prison isn't long enough or maybe it is too long given he was on course for the case to br dropped (although call be a European liberal, but I fail to see how a month in prison could ever be necessary and proportionate).
As for the "The Internet Is Mean" argument, there's no indication in the article that the judge bought that, it comes from one part of a sentence in one paragraph out of the entire article.
Next you'll be telling us that killing sprees are caused by computer games because an article on a murderer noted (s)he played certain games...
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having read the backstory and transcripts, I think if this had anything to do with the suicide it was because she felt bad he got in trouble.
this wasnt "forceable rape" it was statutory rape, meaning that by her state law she wasnt capable of making the choice to have sex, yet in some states/countries she would be considered fully capable of making that choice.
this was NOT rape as you seem to define it.
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The victim's rapist (yes I'm calling him a rapist deal with it) will spend 30 days in jail. The victim's family will spend the rest of their lives grieving over their loved one and how the trauma caused by her rapist played a role in her eventual suicide. The rest of the community will spend the rest of their lives wondering if this rapist touched their children. And this judge will have to live the rest of his life knowing he gave a rapist -- an admitted rapist, goddamn you -- no less than a month in jail for no good reason at all.
The victim (and her family) deserved justice for what that man did to her and that poor excuse of a judge metaphorically raped her corpse. He deserves to get tossed off the bench.
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he plead to statutory rape, that is quite different from molesting a child or forcible rape.
and not all states have these laws, mine dosnt, they removed it years ago because it was leading to far more problems then it was solving.
if you read the back story the girl didnt want her persecuted/prosecuted, for her justice would have been leaving him alone and dropping it, its quite likely if this had anything to do with her death, that it was over how the whole thing was handled rather then over them having creepy sex....
but, there is ZERO info about this other then her mother blaming him.....if she knew her kid was having problems, she should have gotten her help...period.
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They are easily manipulated, conned or groomed.
They are 14 ffs, they have been conned into thinking Justin Beiber is an artist and that Converse is a style of shoe.
BTW... statutory rape... seems legit. Someone cons you out of all your possessions.... statutory mugged
American rape laws are retarded. Their child protection laws are even worse. Converse are BASEBALL BOOTS btw kids. Wore them when I was your age. Yep I was groovy cool and hip too.
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more of the world disagrees with you then agrees with you on 14yo's being able to concent.
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Selective viewpoint you have there. Majority of map is 16. Developed world is mainly 16-18.
Every developing country is also moving to around 16-18 years old.
Child welfare laws are more common every day.
Good luck to your kids M8. They probably won't be safe with a pedo apologist parent. Fuck knows who you will let them be friends with when they are 12 or 13.
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interesting.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World
guess you need to edit that to reflect the fact that spain and a swath of europe is 3rd world.
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The US is 17, the majority of the world (in terms of country count)says 16, but in terms of population is 14.
Use your brain before your mouth (keyboard).
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btw the US it verys state to state, 14-18 range from what i have read.
remember these guys know better then anybody else, and know what a 3rd world country is(any country they dont agree with the laws of)
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Agreed. 31 days is too short for this case.
"The victim's family will spend the rest of their lives grieving over their loved one and how the trauma caused by her rapist played a role in her eventual suicide."
I don't care. We should not hand out sentences based on how the victim's family feels about it. And the suicide years later should not have an impact on the sentence, either. We do NOT want the situation where someone feels like they need to commit suicide so their rapist gets a longer sentence.
"The rest of the community will spend the rest of their lives wondering if this rapist touched their children."
So? If they're going to wonder about that now, they'd still be wondering about that even if he was sentenced to the 15 years. (And instead of wondering, they COULD try asking their kids [who were high school aged at the time and likely adults by now], although the answer is almost certainly "no".)
"The victim (and her family) deserved justice for what that man did to her"
No sentence is going to bring her back. Whatever is done to this man is not going to affect her or her family.
"metaphorically raped her corpse."
No, and you should feel bad for even making this analogy.
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The family may want revenge. They at the very least deserve Justice.
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Hell, Tim was far too emotional when writing the article. So emotional that he corrupted the integrity of Techdirt. Remember that article about the girl who killed herself due to online harassment by an adult? Techdirt argued (correctly) that the adult should not be punished more harshly due to the girl killing herself.
Now there's so much emotion that most of the story is missed. This is why emotion should not play into justice. Emotion leads to mistakes and corruption.
Dude committed statuary rape (can't get around that). That is the only thing he should be charged with, not the death of the child, especially since the death seems to be unrelated to the situation.
Don't mistake emotion for justice.
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well thats what a bunch of commenters in this thread would like, but then again, they just saw the faux news post tim made and didnt read the back story or any details behind the case.....and didnt care.....14yo, girl, rape=instant rage....nothing else matters.
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"In October 2008, prosecutors charged Rambold with three counts of sexual intercourse without consent"
This is where english pisses me off. It is just too abusively ambiguous. When I read that I think, he didn't have her consent, but then I remember that the source of consent isn't explicitly stated, so it could be that the consent he did not have is that of society. BIG difference.
In one interpretation he forced himself on the girl against her will, the other is that she was all for it and he was all for it, but society deemed that she wasn't alive long enough for her decision to count.
How you can change a word like consent is baffling. If a person gives consent, it is that individuals decision of allowable or unallowable. They don't magically lose their decision making ability because society decided they aren't old enough to have that ability.
As for the 'in other places' argument, In other places that find a person's consent is acceptable at a younger age, that person is usually treated as an adult sooner with more responsibilities which in theory causes them to mature fast enough for their decisions to be better informed (on a generalized basis, not an individual one). So that argument doesn't really apply because the development flow of their young adults is accelerated in various ways. Granted age is a poor assessment of a person's maturity and decision making ability, that's how the US is set up right now (A person that wakes up from a 4 year coma at 18yrs old is legally able to buy cigarettes even if they literally are 14 years old mentally).
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The problem is that they never had that decision making ability to begin with. Teenagers that young are not usually familiar enough with social interactions to understand how other people will attempt to manipulate them. They lack the understanding, knowledge, wisdom, and cultural framework to properly analyze the intentions and motivations of those they interact with, making them an easy target for predators.
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funny, must be magic how more countries dissagree with you then agree with you on this.
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Uses third world countries piss poor child welfare laws to attempt to win pedo apologist argument.
Selective viewpoint you have there. Majority of map is 16. Developed world is mainly 16-18.
Every developing country is also moving to around 16-18 years old.
Child welfare laws are more common every day.
Good luck to your kids M8. They probably won't be safe with a pedo apologist parent. Fuck knows who you will let them be friends with when they are 12 or 13.
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you need to edit this, clearly spain and some other EU countries are listed incorrectly since they are clearly 3rd world by your standards.
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It means, once they're 18...there is no more criminal record - it is as if it never existed. In other words...they aren't held responsible once they become adults.
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many times it dosnt even remove the court records (despite that being why you pay to have it done)
and 13/14/15yo girls who sent pix of their tits to guys have been made life long sex offenders(as have some of the guys who got the images), no way to get off the list.
theres no such thing as a way to clear your record once your accused of something, much like the internet, anything that happens is there forever.
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if you dig around washington isnt the only state doing this, others are following the example because its easy money and the prison lobby LOVE IT, after all, if you cant get a decent job you are more likely to endup in prison.
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Teenagers have a different brain set up, the prefrontal cortex is not fully developed and that is the region that regulates decision making processes.
NPR: The Teen Brain: It's Just Not Grown Up Yet
PubMed: Frontal lobe and cognitive development.
They may lack experience, but they are not stupid little creatures with cognitive impairment, they are capable of higher function decision making, the prefrontal cortex is formed and ready for work between 12 and 14 and fully matured at around 25.
They may not be able to fully appreciate the consequences of their actions and decisions but they sure can decide what they like or not although impulsively.
The experience they will gain like everyone else gains experience, by living and as long as it is not really harmful even bad experiences should yeld great lessons, for future use.
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but because she choose to have sex with a dirty old man, she wasnt culpable for that choice due to age....
our society is pretty fucked up honestly.
Personally, my view is Statutory rape laws and similar laws where theres no consideration taken for anything....i dont like it.
in this case, the guy was out of line, what he did was wrong, he needed and was punished.
but it wasnt rape, and she needed to be held responsible for her choices even if he coursed her into it...
its a life lesson, just like if somebody cons/courses you into giving them all your stuff....its not the other persons fault you are a fool....and its your responsibility to learn from it and not let it happen again.
but alas, thats now how many in our society see it.
many people think women/girls are innocent little flowers that need protected and men are dirty pigs who are always to blame.
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Messed up society? Would she be alive today if HE had done his job and was responsible?
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Are you fucking DEFENDING THIS?!
GTFO
Right now!
Get out.
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I'm stating some facts from the article that aren't in the above summary, but may be relevant. I'm also suggesting others do the same. I really hope you don't see anything wrong with that.
Having seen similar stories elsewhere, involving sexual offences and children where the moral panic gets in the way of reason, I thought it appropriate to double-check some of the facts of the case. After reading the article, I am of the opinion that there aren't enough facts presented to judge this specific case, so I don't think it is appropriate to comment directly on whether this sentence was right or wrong.
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Question: Are there any means you can even imagine that would justify this end of a 30 day sentence for the rape of a child?
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Yes. If greater than 30 days in prison was not necessary to pursue a legitimate aim. So, for example, if there was a zero (or effectively zero) risk of re-offending.
I'm all for convicting the guy of a crime (on these apparent facts); a teacher should know better and the risk of an abuse of position seem high enough to justify a blanket ban on young-student / teacher relationships. But I don't think that people should be locked up for what they've done (that is vengeance or retribution), but for what they might do.
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Just to give some background: My father raped two of my sisters as children, although I never did learn the actual details, but even if they had said yes, it's still an adult having sex with an under-age girl. I was also a child genius who was considered far more mature than his age would indicate, but looking back with hindsight, I'm able to see many decisions I made that at the time I reasoned were correct because "Hey, I'm mature, I'm so smart" but in actuality, because I was too young and didn't have life experience, were wrong.
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Pedophile: 11 and under(or pre-puberty)
Ephebophilia: puberty and up(clear signs such as tits)
look of traci lords, if you find her images from when she was doing porn, your an Ephebophile if you find her attractive(every strait guy i have met does), if you find 6-11 yo's in baithing suits attractive, you are a sock pedo fuck.
and Rikuo: hate to tell you this, if you live to be 100 you will look at decissions you made a year before your death and go "oh fuck, that was a mistake"
you live you learn.
like my buddy who pushed for abstinence only sex education in his local school district....then his daughter got knocked up 3 years later...and when he asked why she didnt use protection....neither of the kids involved knew how to use a condom...since then due to an explosion in teen preganancey they have moved back to proper sex ed and even expanded it to detail std's and such(to scare the kids a bit....once you see herpies sores and shit....ewwww)
again, you live you learn.....
I do agree pedos suck, but, this isnt pedophilia, she was not a "child" in much of the world.(google "age of concent" )
again, it was creepy but it wasnt molestation or rape....
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The guy was punished, severely in my opinion, he lost everything and will endure a lifetime of abuse from others, what else do you want?
Prison time?
This is not a rape case.
The law call it statutory rape, but it doesn't involve any kind of coercion or force is just people shocked the large age difference.
If she was shagging another 14 years old would they both being raping each other?
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One of my friends on Facebook seems to post at least one a week.
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I have had people admit to this attitude on FB talks about this shit, its OK if its an "under age" boy doing a female adult, but other way around, holy fuck, the male needs burned at the stake!!!
again, i have to say this, I DO NOT CONDONE WHAT HE DID but, it wasnt rape, it was wrong, and he got punished, but so did she, the guilt and fall out likely give her some serious emotional trauma....would have been even worse if they sent him to prison I would bet....and thats likely why the judge did what he did in the first place....
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Are you a sick Pedo fuck?
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Replace the work rape with murder and would you feel the same? For example, is your argument that someone killed another person but we shouldn't put them in jail because he most likely wouldn't do it again?
But I don't think that people should be locked up for what they've done (that is vengeance or retribution), but for what they might do.
If I had good reason to think you were about to rape someone, should we incarcerate you? Maybe I should phone the police, I don't know you so for all I know you are about to rape someone RIGHT NOW.
Obviously I'm being facetious since I really don't know you. It's a noble sentiment but where do you draw the line with this argument?
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If you have reasonable grounds to believe that I'm about to rape someone, of course you should call the police (if doing so is necessary to prevent it)! Why wouldn't you?
And yes, arresting someone and detaining them in such circumstances could well be proportionate. But that doesn't mean that locking someone up for 30 days (or 15 years) afterwards is proportionate. As for drawing a line, the great thing about proportionality arguments is that you don't draw a line. You say the punishment must be proportionate...
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15 years might be too long under the circumstances. But 31 days is too short.
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Factually, I would need to see sufficient evidence that it worked - that is, that longer prison sentences for a particular crime significantly reduced offending rates. I don't know if that is or isn't the case.
Ethically, I have a problem with what amounts to punishing one person for what other people might do... I'm not convinced that that is just.
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A teacher teaching kids didn't know this? Cue up the Banjos.
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having read the backstory and such, he was out of line BUT par t of the issue for her was, she was being told she had been taken advantage of and had been raped when, she had consented to the relationship(even if by law she couldnt, dosnt mean she agreed with the law)
No details if this is why she killed herself, and I really dont care....I dont think it could be called RAPE in cases like this, need another word since most people see the word rape and instantly think "violent forced sex" when that was most definitely not the case here....hes a dirty old man, but he didnt rape her by the common definition of the word.
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If there was another world in legal terms for it would you be so confused?
Consensual sex is rape where?
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By doing nothing? or by experimentation?
The guy was much older and a teacher no less, he should know not to fall for teenagers but it does happen and he was punished for it, severely I might add. The girl probably out of remorse killed herself from what I could find, what that tells us about the system and society? our views killed that young woman, our behavior made it unbearable for her to live in this world and she chose to take her own life, not because she had sex with an older guy but because people were horrified by that notion.
I don't want to encourage adults having romantic relations with younger underage people, that is not the point, the point is she was in control, she demonstrated that to a judge that would be happy to crucify the guy if she so blinked and she chose not to, maybe it was love, I can't understand how that could happen, but if a dog can adopt a duck and care for it like her own puppies maybe I should not be so fast to judge what both of them had there.
Maybe this is one of those times that we should show some compassion, it was not a violent thing, she was not under any duress and she apparently cared a great deal about the guy, this is not a coerced relationship, this was not something that was forced, it happened and he got punished for it.
We all experimented, we all try knew things, and we all advance and gain workable knowledge with each and every mistake we make.
The guy obviously should have known better he had way more experience than the girl and he got punished by for it.
That should be the end, no other teacher will want to lose their families, jobs and good name to have an affair with a minor, and it still will happen from time to time, but I don't believe that those people should be punished as severely as true rapists or pedophiles that is all.
I keep thinking of the girl and why she took her life, and I keep remembering my younger self when the guys bragged about having sex with older girls, it was something to brag about it, there was no shame, there was nothing wrong with it then, why it is so bad now? have people in her community make it so unbearable and shameful that she couldn't take it anymore? wouldn't it be better if she could just brag about an affair she had with an old fart? why it is so bad now?
Because it was a girl that chose an older guy?
Would you punish the guy if he was the same age of her for consensual sex?
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Which is it?
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you cant equate age with wisdom or inelegance with wisdom, some people never grow up, never gain any wisdom.
some people, as a psychology instructor I had like to say, are never ready for a sexual relationship, and some are ready before most people in this country would be comfortable with it.
you cant equate age or intelegance with wisdom because....again some people never learn from life, and others learn from what they have seen others do and dont have to make the same mistakes others have made.
a friend of mine watched how his mother acted and lived her life and learned from it, rather then a string of marriages, he has had 1 thats lasted because he didnt look for "hot" and "money" but somebody he could live with and enjoy being with.
his mother to this day gos from relationship to relationship...and is a total drama queen(shes in her mid to late 60's and still acts like a stereotypical teen.)
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Statutory.
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In your own words: "this wasnt 'forceable rape' it was statutory rape". So it is rape (legally) even if you disagree it was rape (semantically).
This is exactly why words can have many meanings.
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The judge was compassionate with a fool and that is bad?
The guy lost his job, family and will have to endure a lifetime of abuse by the hands of others like yourself for having an affair with a minor and that is not enough?
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Didn't he lost his job, family and will be listed as a sex offender?
He didn't rape anybody, he had sex with a minor a consenting minor no less with an age old enough to bear a child, not an under developed one.
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girls are unable to decide if they want to have sex till they are 16 or 18 or 19.....or till they get married.....
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How do you know that young woman was not capable of rational thought? how do you measure cognitive competence?
The law may be clear, you may have a strong bias towards punishment because of your beliefs by I am not so sure about it.
I see it differently, I see a young woman falling in love with an old fool that should know better and starting a romantic relationship, that somehow the disclosure of that affair if had gone unnoticed may have given her some good memories and some experiences to talk about in the future but the disclosure of such affair made her world unbearable to the point that she took her life. I see an angry mother that would do anything to punish her daughters lover despite any feeling her own daughter might have had for him.
I see a judge that saw a good person do a stupid thing and had the audacity to have some compassion knowing what it would happen to that person, he already lost everything and he will have no future, what else do you want to take from him?
Why would nature make young people capable of having children if they were not prepared?
It seems pretty clear to me that laws in this regard are written more inline with mores than actual scientific data or reality.
A quarter of adolescents have sex an start experimenting as young as 13 years old. The age of consent differs from many countries as low as 13 years old in some parts.
At 14 you start learning calculus, biology, chemistry and is the age where everything is questioned and teenagers start testing the limits of society.
They are old enough to do all that, but are not old enough to have a relationship or decide who their friends or lovers are? that seems odd.
Also about the sentencing, again the guy lost everything because he was stupid and will endure a lifetime of abuse by the hands of others for an affair with a minor that you believe its wrong and you want more?
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That's it. Get out. Get off Techdirt. While I can see some sort of merit in the rest of your argument (if I squint my eyes), you have lost all posting privileges. While you're leaving this site, contact your boss, tell him/her you are a threat to children.
I am not over-reacting, I am simply using logic. You have stated that you have no problem with a grown man having sex with children simply because technically, girls are physically capable of bearing young.
Also, sex between two teenagers is FAR FAR FAR different than sex between a 14 year old and a FORTY NINE year old teacher, who is in a position of authority over her.
Just be glad this isn't reddit or 4chan. If you had commented there, the insane nutcases over there would have already torn your comment apart and found out everything about you.
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Why the age of the guy she chose to have sex matters?
Would it be rape if the guy was 15, 16, 17, where is the line there for you?
I have friends that at 12 had sex with their nannies and they seem fine, they even brag about it.
Why it is so terrible? is just your morals that matter is that it?
Again why would nature make you capable of bearing a child at 12 if they couldn't handle it?
Explain why nature clocks is not aligned with peoples morals.
Is this question to much challenging for your bias?
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The biological clock of humans is not in sync with our morals, you can get blue in the face and it won't change that simple fact.
Girls start ovulating between 12 and 14 years old, which means hormones start kicking in and forcing them to become more sexual.
This is why a quarter of all teenager that age actually said they had sex already and are sexually active.
Now if the girl chose and older guy that is wrong why?
Where is the true harm in that aside from the morals of it?
I want to find out where are the harm here.
I remember male friends bragging about having their first experience at very young ages some at the age of 11 with much older women and they seem fine with it for some reason, no harm came from that experience.
Where is the true harm, where is the true cost of all of that?
Do your morals justify harsh punishment for something that may not even have bad consequences?
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Ask yourself why that happens.
Good, honest working people having sex with willing teenagers despite all the risks.
I don't think they have a choice, the need to reproduce is stronger than morals or written rules. Biology dictates our actions more than our morals and made up rules.
Some cultures have specific names for older female and male adults that engage in sexual intercourse with willing younger boys and girls. A lot of males have their first sexual experience with older women.
The question for me is where is the harm?
I can see the harm of raping someone, you take away their dignity, their self esteem and much more, but where is the harm on sexual experimentation?
Doesn't concern you that she killed herself apparently because of the community response and not because of the sex?
What would have happened if that relationship was allowed to run its course, would she still be alive?
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You have just denied older people's humanity. While I wouldn't want my 14 year old child to be having sex at all (if I had one), I understand why she would be. Then it would be correct to bring in the biological need to reproduce, as hormones are firing in him/her which is something they've never felt before. It's new, it's unknown and they literally don't know what to do.
The older people? The argument you've just made denies them their humanity, denies that they have any capability whatsoever to be able to think and reason, even when under pressure, like if someone sexually attractive to them is saying they want sex. While many older people do give in to it, they are still making a choice to do so. Your argument says they don't have a choice, that they are no better than rutting animals who, when in heat, simply mate, because they are not self-aware or sentient enough to be able to discern between right and wrong.
Anyway guys, I'm tired, and I have work in about seven hours. This will be my last comment, so I'm going to sleep.
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People stop thinking about sex when they get older?
Do people when get old stop being impulsive?
The answer is no, people don't stop thinking about sex no matter their age, people don't stop being impulsive in fact after a certain age people start to get more gullible which some attribute to some degeneration of some parts of the brain.
This doesn't deny their humanity in fact it reinforces it, they are natural creatures and they respond to stimuli in the same manner as others, if you are into same sex affairs and they touch you, you get aroused if your are not you don't.
We chose to ignore some impulses but we are not always capable of, why do people don't do diets? why people with diabetes like to eat lots of candy despite the risks of dying or worse getting blind, full of open sores with renal failure and a slow death the do not come before they get demented from all the complications?
He is not alone there, many do abide by those simple rules we impose to ourselves but some can't do it, is sad really, but does it mean they are bad?
He didn't rape her, from what I read it was a voluntary relationship, maybe some may want to condemn it, and you appear to me more concerned in punishing the guy instead of looking at the kid to see what happened to her.
She died, apparently she decided to take her own live because of all the pressure coming from the community the acts of the community were the ones that caused irreparable damage not the guy in this case, but you don't care about that do you?
You are more interested in punishing the guy for being weak and allowed himself to get involved with a teenager.
I don't care about the guy, he got punished already, the girl though is dead and I want to know why.
Would you accept that maybe if this didn't come out she could still be alive and happy even if it was with the creepy old dude? or it could never happen?
You don't seem willing to take into account many of the other options that there are.
If the guy raped that young woman I would want to see him in prison for a long, long time, he didn't at worse he took advantage of his experience and seduced a young girl that was happy about it thus no harm inflicted and at best he was dumb enough to fall in love with a teenager which would probably get tired of the relationship and move on and could even blackmail him in the future.
Have a good night.
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sadly im not kidding about that, I wonder when one of these guys is gonna make the news for murdering people they find on the sex offender registry.....with how they talk, its only a matter of time.
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girls are to dumb to make choices about having sex at that age, but boys.....well they are dirty flithy little bastards who take advantage of little girls.
you need to understand things from their point of view, they view girls as needing protected far more then boys, though if they commit a horrible crime, its still ok to hold them accountable as adults for that....jesus says so....
alot of the morals you see from these people are rooted back to american religion and views of women being weak and dumb....
gotta protect them from themselves and males!!!
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You think teenagers are not capable of emotionally manipulating others?
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In addition, he was her teacher. Teachers go through training where they are told in no uncertain circumstances that intimate relationships with students are illegal.
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[Says the husband of a teacher]
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[says the husband of someone with a half-finished degree in education]
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even then, some men/women are weak willed, even teachers....
i had a teacher you could talk into giving you a good grade even if you turned nothing in the whole term...(loved that class...lol)
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Do you know the guy?
Is he a submissive type or an authoritarian?
Was the girl curious? intelligent? dumb? passive? poisonous?
And yes it is illegal, but laws means nothing to biology.
Here is a study about salt intake and the assumptions that we made about how bad it was to consume too much.
Quote:
UC Davis: Salt intake physiologically set in humans, new study finds
No police can change that can it now?
If the girl was 20 and he 55 would make it legal, but you still be creeped out wouldn't?
But it was a girl that biologically was ready to start sexual relations from a biological point, but not from polices in place.
It happens all the time, we try to discourage and yet every month it seems some teacher is caught having sexual relations with some students and it doesn't matter if the teachers are male of female both do it.
Do you ever get curious about why that happens?
I believe it is hardwired in all of us, so although laws say one thing biology tells us another. This is why so many adult teachers get caught doing it despite all the risks, the drive to reproduce is stronger than laws and police.
Maybe despite being objectionable we should not criminalize those type of things, maybe more harm comes from disclosure of such things, then from letting it happen naturally, with one caveat it needs to be consensual, without pressures from the adult part.
The girl apparently killed herself because of the community not because of the sex, which could have ended up as just a good memory for her, but it turned into an unbearable nightmare.
I am more concerned about the health of the kid than on the morals of it all. I don't condone it, I don't do it and I don't think I ever will, but reality is, that it happens, In this case the teacher doesn't seem to be a bad person and it appeared to care about her and she reciprocated where is the real harm in all of it?
What if the right course in this case was to let it happen and end naturally like any other relationship?
She move on, brag about how she had a thing with an older guy and move on, instead everybody knew, the environment turned toxic and she killed herself.
Is that the best outcome really?
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There is simply no way at all there can be no pressure from the adult if the adult is a teacher in a position of authority over her.
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understated
Even just being older is a massive position of power.
Being her teacher is way, way more powerful.
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She chose to end her life because of the other pressure that came from society, not from her adult lover why?
You think that judge wouldn't want to punish the guy severely, he is no different from others, he would love to do the right thing and defend a teenager girl from a bad adult, why would he go against the grain, she must have convinced the judge of something what was it?
Does that teacher have any connections with the government? is he related to the judge? where they friends?
I know you want to believe he is bad and he did something wrong, but it doesn't make it so.
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14 is too young to consent of free will.
This was not two 14 year olds, "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" experimentation of peoples with similar mental capacities and life experience. It was a man abusing his position of power to have sex with a 14 year old girl.
Do you even remember how gullible and easily manipulated you were at 14 years old ?
At 14, How many years ago was it that you stopped believing in santa ?
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For years, I defended him and believed him to be innocent. I defended him saying that he had always been nice to me, whereas my sister had bullied me. That made perfect sense when I was 13. There were other signs, actions he took that any rational older person would have picked up on and been alarmed about, but me in my youth and inexperience didn't.
Today, I now know that the reason for her bullying was that she needed to act out against her abuser, but couldn't because he was more powerful than her, so she chose me because of my support and closeness with him. While not actually excusable, it is certainly understandable.
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Your sister was raped, your father deserves no respect, the teacher didn't rape that girl, at worst he exploited her and at best he really had feelings for the young one.
But is not important to distinguish between rape and consensual sex is it?
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You experiment, fuck up and move on.
What killed the girl, the sex with the old perv or the public reaction?
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If you had to deal with teenager all day long and interact with them for years would you not pick up some of their traits?
The environment you are in dictates how you behave or at the very least can influence your behavior.
People probably have noticed and named teachers who have become child like in the work place.
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they should have cut his junk off with a hot spork, cooked it and fed it to him, then killed him slowly as she watched and was told he wouldnt take advantage of her again.
im sure that would have been better for her, her mother and society as a whole.
after all, she was 14, far to young to be in any way ready to fuck.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World
clearly this list of first/second/3rd are very very wrong and need edited by the experts here on techdirt to fix the flaws that show spain and some other countries with 13 AoC in their proper 3rd world placement.
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Are people with a severe mental handicap capable of having children?
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The word rape is inflammatory because in the case covered by the article it appears to be only statutory rape. Not the same as violent forced sex. One usually calls it statutory rape so that people know what you're trying to get across, just like we have the Canadian dollar.
And then there is murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, wrongful death and so forth. It is a matter of degree. Getting the degree right is part of the responsibility of a sober judgement.
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The only way the maturity of the child should have played a part in this case if the girl was the reincarnation of an adult with all the memories of that adult.
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Answer you don't really know, you didn't talk to her and you probably are not capable of making that evaluation yourself.
Also I am curious do you think every idiot adult should pass some test for cognitive competence and have his or hers rights revoked based on those tests?
A idiot adult woman that has consensual sex with and older man should have to see her lover being arrested and put in prison is that your view?
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All the rest of that stuff in your comment is basically you putting words in my mouth, therefore I feel no need to defend myself against it, except to point out that I did not in fact say any of that.
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like the kinda people who go out and drink to excess and then cry about horrible hangovers....they never seem to learn from it....others do learn from it and dont drink to excess...
yes the above example isnt directly related but, its a common thing that we all see.....to this day, i see people I knew in highschool decades ago who STILL go out and get drunk as hell then cry about hangovers...
they do not learn from experience.....where I have also seen kids who watched what others did and learned from it so they didnt make those mistakes themselves.
you cant judge maturity or wisdom only on age...again some people can age without ever maturing or gaining any wisdom along the way.
perhaps we need a set of tests somebody has to pass to be allowed to have sex, if you never pass you never get the right to have sex legally, anybody who has sex with you and yourself get in legal trouble if they do.....
would you be ok with that?
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Certainly, some people can engage in these activities while under the minimum age, and they aren't hurt by the activity; I was certainly capable of driving a car safely before I was 16. In other cases, the minimum age is unreasonably high, so that it is not treated with any respect; pretty much everyone has drank alcohol while under the minimum age.
Unfortunately, the minimum age restrictions are in place for a good reason. While some people can engage in these activities without harming themselves, most cannot. Various societies try to decide upon this age based on their belief of when a significant proportion of the population at that age would not be harmed by the activity. While various societies may not agree universally on the *particular* age, they do appear to universally agree that there *should be* a minimum age.
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What good reason is there to send a that man that was already punished and his life ruined without any harm done?
Maybe is time to revisit those old assumptions and tweak it a bit so young people are not public humiliated to satisfy the adults thirst for blood.
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is as some above insist spain a 3rd world country and thats the reason their AoC is 13?
or could it be their society views sex in a less theistic light?
alot of our laws about age and sex are directly related to victorian values our religious population follow.
many states raised the AoC to combat problems created by their religious drive for abstinence only sex education rather then, you know, teach kids to use condoms and how to avoid getting knocked up/getting somebody knocked up.
(sadly im not kidding about the above....wish i was..)
I do no condone what this asshole did, I dont agree with it, but it was not rape....it was abuse of power and position, and he needed punished, he has been, and better yet, and this should make everybody here very happy, hes marked for life, he will never be able to get a decent job, or live in a decent area, hes a sex offender, he also will always be at risk of some vigilanty deciding he needs killin.(its happened quite a bit in this country)
he didnt get off scott free despite what the post implys (read the story not the blerb tim posted.)
again, to make it clear, I think he needed punished, I do not agree with what he did, I just dont believe its rape....not as our society invisions rape.
he didnt force her to have sex with him....he conned/coerced her but thats not rape...if it was many guys here would be in jail for coercing women into having sex with them.....(according to many neofeminists that is rape, as is all hetero sex...)
hes been punished, hes going to be punished the rest of his life, hes a registered sex offender....do you really think hes going to have a decent life with that on his record for life?
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I understand your argument of the degree, but that doesn't excuse the fact that a 30 day sentence is woefully too low for even the lowest degree of rape.
To be clear, the word rape is not inflammatory. What's inflammatory is to say things like 'it's ONLY statutory rape' as if some kinds of rape are somehow OK or excusable.
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What harm comes from two consenting parties about doing something?
In this came more harm came from the law and societal bias than the sex they had there.
You think a lifetime of pain by being labeled a sex offender for having consensual sex is not enough?
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this case is creepy and wrong but again, not rape....
and again read the full story, he did treatment, completed it (was kicked out of one program for minor violation of their rules and completed it via another provider) what hes being jailed for is not rape/statutor rape but for being kicked out of one program despite getting into another and completing it.
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I love the detail you put in to exactly what rule he broke there. Shall I inform and teach the class? He was alone with family members who just happened to be children. This is a man who has been determined, who has confessed to having sex with children, and thus, he was told that for the protection of children, he was not supposed to be left alone with them.
I wouldn't call letting a man known to have had willing sex with a child alone with other children a minor violation of the rules, family or not.
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and the fact is, the treatment providers evaluated him and ruled him a low risk, he also had a relationship with a woman, something many treatment programs do not allow, but do not bother to tell people they dont allow.
he was accepted into another program and completed it.
and you are acting like hes a pedo, hes not, at worst hes an Ephebophile (14-19yo age range) and, the court im sure recognized that as well, or he would have done more time.
I love how you conflate 14yo with little kiddies....please tell a group of 14yo girls they are teh same as 0-11 year olds and see how that turns out for you....
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It's rape
2) Approach 99% of any 14 year olds I see
3) Get them to empty their pockets
4) Get them to consent to giving me their pocket money
5) ???????
6) profit
It's still robbery tho, isn't it.
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first time itt
thanks for looking out for me.
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Re: It's rape
You will have to be far more specific then just "get them to consent".
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on the other hand, if she murdered somebody or committed armed robbery or the like, she would be culpable for her actions and would be charged as an adult.
not hypocrisy at all..
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enjoy...and again be sure to not let her leave your state, each state has its own age of concent, an some may be low enough you feel your daughters being "Raped"
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he did treatment, completed it, hes not considered a threat by treatment providers or the court, the girl did not want him persecuted, it likely caused her mental distress that he was...
IMHO the fact that most of the world finds our laws insane should give us a clue that there may be a problem.
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If I con you into giving me all your possessions. You were not robbed ?
You would consent to being fucked by bubba in a prison cell
It wouldn't be rape then ?
Also...
Your pedo propaganda persecution complex is showing.
Pedos are misunderstood and persecuted for wanting to sex vulnerable and easily manipulated kids who do give consent.
LOL..bullshit detector overload.
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i wouldnt concent to being fucked by anybody so thats moot.
sorry, this dosnt count as pedophilia, look up the definition, 0-11 is pedophilia 14-19 is Ephebophilia, and, in our system, anybody even accused of a sex crime ends up persecuted, because once accused, your fucked, even if your found innocent, its out there and a background check will show it, makes it hard to get work, ask anybody whos been there....
i got a good friend who was accused when he was in Ohio, a girl in Washington state accused him of rape during that time, he cant find a decent job now because background checks show he was accused.....never mind the fact that they dropped the case the day of trial, (after he refused a last minute plee offer)
hes not even on the SO regestry and hes got these problems, how do you think it effects people who are on the registry?
murderes have an easier time getting work then somebody whos even been accused of a sex crime....
good to see your for life long punishment for select crimes or even accusations but not others.
you say it was rape, I say it was an abuse of possition and influanc, that he was punished for....and will be for the rest of his life......
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again, I think we can agree, this was creepy, and he needed smacked around for it, may even have needed the treatment, but it wasnt rape as people invision it.
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What would be worse for you.
Waking up every day knowing you are a sucker who was stupid and got conned ?
Remembering that time you were mugged at knife point ?
The whole, statutory rape bullshit demeaning it to a lesser crime is retarded. It's probably worse. They have to wake up every day thinking that they are stupid to be manipulated.
BTW... 14 year old is in no position to give consent. She was groomed/raped.
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just as if you con a girl into having sex with you, you didnt rape her.
and, neither would be worse, they would both be lessions life teaches.
how do you know they feel they where conned into sex?
having read comments by girls who had sex with older men at those ages most dont feel they where conned.....infact most of them say they got what they went after....
some say they where stupid and should have waited, but have yet to see one say they felt like they where stupid and it ruined their lives....(part of an fb group where we talk about alot of this stuff, several of the girls/women talk about this stuff quite openly)
and the girls would laugh at you saying 14yo's are to young to give consent....feel free to look up the group "Gender Discussions" on facebook and join, feel free to tell them they where conned and are stupid and wherent able to choose to have sex at 14....i will enjoy them taring you apart...(mind all are over age now before you accuse me of anything)
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You are one sick fuck. You should be investigated.
The NSA will be forwarding your comments and address along the the FBI momentarily.
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but let them come on over, let them check the group out, you will find no children or young adults there.
grow up, stop using adhom's to attack me just because I dont agree with your views and opinions.
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If you had kids you would understand that a child is a vulnerable person. You would empathize with their state of being. You would empathize with their family.
NOT empathize with the adult who through sexual desire ruined a child's life and got away with it. Like what happened in this case. That is a fact.
The proof of a ruined life is not that she killed herself later.
The proof is that a grown man had a sexual relationship with her.
Not being able to prove that she killed herself solely because she was raped is IRRELEVANT. The whole getting raped at 14 ruined her life and mental status for sure. May have even caused physical harm too.
Consent can not be considered to be given.
A 14 year old to be blunt, hasn't got a clue and is manipulated easily.
Implying that rational and logical reasoning should completely remove empathy from criminal justice.... is irrational and illogical in itself.
Justice is empathy based.
Some laws are moral judgement based and must be adhered to for laws sake, not justice's sake or revenges sake. (like getting caught smoking weed, no empathy reason, no revenge reason just a moral reason for punishment)
Teacher abusing position of power and raping 14 year old girl. Requires justice and some revenge. 31 days is not justice for the girl.
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your kids must be pretty fucking sheltered and stupid if you think they cant think for themselves.
yes some are pretty stupid, but so are many adults....male and female....
and you didnt read the actual story, so your "not justice for the girl" comment....invalid.
he was wrong, he did something very wrong and very very creepy, but it wasnt rape, and very likely the reason the judge didnt throw the book at him....the girl it seems didnt want that(from what i read) and it likely would have caused her more emotional stress/damage if he where tossed in prison for 30years(or life) as many of you would like.
I have empathy for both of them, for her because, either way, she got the short end of the stick, and for him because, no matter what happens, his life will suck till it ends....hes a registered sex offender, hes not going to be able to get a decent job, live in a decent community....even though it seems the court and treatment providers feel hes not really a threat to anybody.....
perhaps for him it would have been better if they had the death penalty for statutory rape, it would have made many people happy, and would have given them a sense that the girl got justice.
and he wouldnt have to live a life where hes gotta look over his shoulder constantly wondering if somebody is gonna try and kill him because hes a sex offender.
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GTFO right now!
See how useful that is.
Want to start a flame war? fine by me.
Some people want rapists to die, I want them to die after all the facts come to light first.
There are things that could have attenuated the circumstances, like the girl being the one who actually started the seduction and he fell for it and even though it was consensual on both parties by law it is labeled as rape.
From reading the original article it seems he had a relationship with a minor, and from the low grading he received is probably safe to assume that he didn't rape anybody.
I am all for strong punitive measures against real rapists, people who go out there and rape others by force or intimidation, this does not appear to be the case and we probably never know, but I am not punishing anybody for having consensual sex with others even if that other is a minor that is probably experiencing and discovering her own sexuality, it may be wrong to engage a minor no doubt but it is not rape either and he probably suffered enough punishment for what he did there and will continue to suffer more as he is required for the rest of his natural life to register as a sex offender opening him up for all kinds of abuse that will emerge from a society that doesn't know the meaning of compassion once you are labeled a rapist or something no matter what shades of grey there are.
Why did she killed herself?
Was it because of him rapping her or shame of what others were saying to her about her relationship with an older guy?
If the later the person who put this in public is probably the responsible party for her suicide and not the guy.
Not everything is black and white.
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its still a big....creepy but, he didnt force himself on her, and, as many storys like this show, the girl many times feels very bad the guy got in such trouble and that they are being told they where victims when they dont feel they where.
way I see it, we need a new term for it rather then rape, and we need different punishments.
recent story http://www.marieclaire.com/world-reports/news/teen-sex-offender
shows a situation where the same kinda laws where used to persecute and ruin a guys life who was just a few months to old to be dating the girl.....her mother caused the issue because she was in an arguement with her daughter, after she found out what she caused....well she feels horrible(she should)
mind the 2 are married and have like 3 kids now...and hes still trying to get off the sex offender registry...despite everybody knowing hes no threat to anybody.
read the story....and realize there are thousands/tends of thousands/hundreds of thousands of similar cases out there....
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Even if the student came to him and tried to initiate the relationship, he should have known better. He should be able to foresee the consequences that will happen to the girl.
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What losing your family, job and being labeled a pedophile for the rest of your life is not enough for a stupid affair with a teenager?
You want him to be raped in prison, tortured, or killed?
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So here's a hypothetical. Insider trader for a huge corporation commits a financial crime of a huge sort, costs his company billions, due to some gross stupidity on his part. His name is known, thus unofficially blacklisted from working in that area ever again (who would hire someone so stupid?) He can't pay the mortgage on his mansion because his money has been seized, his wife divorces him.
Would you then allow this to factor in the amount of time this guy should serve behind bars?
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its quite likely the reason they dealt with it as they did years ago was that it would cause the girl more mental harm if they threw the book at him then if they cut him a break.
Also part of the system is punishment, he lost his home, family, carrier(and justly so), he is now branded a sex offender FOR LIFE, meaning hes gonna have trouble finding meaningful work, he had to do treatment(and im sure pay for it out of what little he was likely able to make as a sex offender)
hes a marked man, anybody who googles his name will find hes a sex offender, and most will assume violent rapist or child molester, He did not get off scott free...
and he will pay for his stupidity the rest of his life.
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When I was a kid no-one thought about this. We were free to do what we wanted. The only people we had to fear were our parents.
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And I'm sorry, there is no such thing as a "mature" 14-year-old child. They think they are all that and know anything/everything. But it's just not true. The laws are in place SPECIFICALLY for that reason. The child does not know the full extent of their actions and the ramifications because of them.
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i suggest you stay within the US as more of the world has 13-14yo age of consent then have ages you would feel comfortable with.
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I'm also going to take your avatar into consideration and use it to judge your personality and why you're defending having sex with a 13 year old person.
Feel free to move to Angola or any of those other countries in Africa where they feel no need to protect their children.
And to expand on your statements... perhaps we should still have eye-for-an-eye punishments. Other countries do it.
Or maybe we should still have slavery... other countries do it.
Or maybe we should stone people... other countries do it.
Trying to use a red herring argument gets you nowhere, so stop using them.
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Oh and i never said i agreed with it, I just find it odd how our country is one of the few with laws like this and such high age of concent.
i prefer women closer to my own age honestly, they tend to be more stable then young ladies.(mentally that is)
I just dont feel it should be called rape.
another thing to point out, till faily recently, some states had laws saying 13/14 was the age of consent, many in recent years have upped that in an attempt to stop the explosion in teen pregnancy, this is especially true in red states where they teach abstinence only sex ed....you know, "dont have sex"....teens dont learn to use condoms so...they dont use them...then girls get knocked up and its the boys fault....
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The reason consent is not 13 is to stop teen pregnancy.
Has nothing to do with a 13 year old having a severely under developed brain and mental capacity or anything. It has nothing to do with kids being easy to manipulate... It's to stop teen pregnancy.
Kids believes in santa because they are kids.
14 year olds have their own traits because they are 14. Including being easily manipulated into having sex with a person who is in a position of power.
Would you defend a priest who raped a 14 year old boy too ?
Even if the 14 year old boy was not "forcefully raped" ?
Hurr durrr consent .... You would consent to being fucked by bubba in a prison cell
Cause you got a choice... you do. Honestly.
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as to a 14yo boy and a priest....his own fault for allowing it to happen, sorry but, IMHO 14 is old enough that he/she need to take responcibility for their own actions.
if they killed somebody they would be charged as adults, if they sent somebody nude of themselves they would be charged as adults, yet, they are considered to young to decide if they wana fuck somebody.....dosnt that seem odd?
oh yeah, and good to know you feel spain is a 3rd world country....
and that states that changed the law in recent years from 13 to 16 or 18 did it because magically girls got dumber.....amazing....good to know that people are getting dumber and less responsible for their own decisions with regard to sex, but if its murder or theft or sending nude pix of themselves, they are adults and culpable for their actions.
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Holy fuck, you have lived this long in this world and never heard of people being conned and manipulated ?
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I see them regularly flerting with guys, wearing whore gear/slut gear, hell, you would be shocked what I see out th window at work....they get off the school buss and look like its full of hookers.....(makes me wana gag honestly)
at least 1/2 of them dress that way and act that way....i dont condone it but I dont pretend its not a fact....
cops here catch lots of under age girls drunk at parties, again i dont condone it but, they do it...many have fake ID's and get into bars and clubs.....
sorry but teen girls are not clueless little angels who cant understand what they are doing....many of them are as predatory as males out looking for some ass....yes even at 14...perhaps ask some women from recent generations who are now past that age but remember what it was like....I think you will find that, many of them where "on the make" as it where even at that age....
again, i dont condone it, but, I also dont pretend its not true because that makes me feel better.
its also why I dont go out and pickup women or even flert with women I dont know are over age....because the risk of being labeled pedo/exct is just to great....its not worth the risk.....
specially in states where they have statutory rape laws.....in those states you can meet a girl who looks 25 has an id saying shes of age....and still endup a sex offender if the id was fake.....google it, its quite common now days...and its caused me to decide, dating/flerting/exct arent worth the risk.....best to date my hand rather then risk prison.
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and funny, the world cant even agree on when somebody can consent, the range falls between puberty and like 21, thats a pretty wide range....
even states in this very country cant agree, 14-18 range in Murika!!!!
so, what age is it?
by law, you cant even tell that without checking the laws in each state every time you enter one, since they can change any time they change the law.
the funniest part to me is I bet you have no problem with charging a 14yo as an adult in a murder case or armed robbery or aggravated violent rape.
somehow a 14yo is culpable for those things but cant be culpable to pick who they wana fuck....
then, the DA and COPS cant help but harrass her till she offs herself.....and you wana blame the guy who hasnt seen her in 3 years....rather then the DA and COPS who havent given her any peace and likely threatened to send her to prison if she didnt do what they wanted....
I do say the latter having had the cops threaten me like that over something i saw happen.....(mutual combat fight where the guy who started it got his ass handed to him, they wanted to send the other guy to prison and i wouldnt say that he started it and didnt stop when the fight was clearly over.....when infact he did...)
andrew, you can KMFHA, this guy was wrong, he deserved to be punished for being stupid and abusing his authority (if thats what happened), but she did not deserve to be punished and harassed over this till she killed herself.
you are one sick fuck if you think she deserved to get harrassed till she killed herself because she refused to say he raped her, when she didnt feel she had been raped or abused in any way....
in this case, I take the "victum"s word over that of cops/da that just want convictions.
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AGAINST FREEDOM OF SPEECH?
You have just as much right to tell someone to GTFO as he does to publish his opinion. But you lack the ability and authority to MAKE him get out.
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I have had ethugs threaten me and one even came out to fight me once years ago.....when he saw me, he about shit himself(i was about 3x his size and im built like a viking....but not a techno viking.....:P )
we are all allowed to state our opinions, just because i dont agree this was rape dosnt mean i feel it was right, and dosnt mean im a perv or pedo....no matter what they say to try and discredit me.
notice none of us are calling them sick perverts, despite the fact that I think their fixation on your girls sex lives is a bit....creepy....
meh back to reading.
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rather then flip the fuck out, I would have talked to her, and, unlike this mother I think I would have noticed something was wrong before she offed herself.
I also will never shame my kids regarding their sexual choices, I have seen what that does to a person, and how growing up in a home where sex wasnt anything dirty or to hide...well, Im less worried about any child I have hitting puberty and having sex then I am about making sure they know how to use protection and avoid std's and pregnancy.
sex is a natural part of life, yeah what this guy did was creepy, but then again, we dont know if he or she where the aggressor.....I would take for how the case went down, that it was likely she had alot more culpability then most guys here would like to accept....otherwise.....i think books would have been thrown.
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THIS IS THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS OF ALL INJUSTICES EVER.....
I'm sharing this in my account... this outrage must be heard by everyone...
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Can it be appealed to higher instances? Can I appeal? Where do I donate so they can get uber lawyers to put this guy in jail for life?
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reads like it was written by faux news or msnbc....
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and a strong feeling from all i have read on other sites is that the reason the judge cut him a break was that she didnt want him prosecuted/persecuted.
no info about what was going on before she offed herself....no clue if it was really related or if it was how it was related.
im not a rape apologist or pedo/sicko, I just have issue with consensual sex being called rape even if thats how the law sees it.
(some states the law states at 17years 11months 28 days a girls cant consent but a few days later... magically shes mature enough to consent....
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This article is pretty enlightening: http://www.marieclaire.com/world-reports/news/teen-sex-offender-3
I honestly think 14-yr old are perfectly capable of having a sexual activity and loving. The issue is the same with surveillance vs freedom of speech. We need a balance between protection for the minors and natural behavior. Hard to achieve.
I'd never think of you as some pedo. As we have discussed many times here in techdirt specially when there's trolling included a good reasonable argument always enrich the discussion even if the parties disagree. And if you are a really wise person you will admit you are in the wrong and change opinions. My initial comment lack information and you made me reconsider, along with other comments. I will not condemn the alleged offender but I'll not go for the opposite direction and say everything is ok since the details are cloudy. In any case thanks a bunch for this discussion!
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I took the stand many here still do, till the girls we heard from talked very passionately about how they where not victims and where not abused, hell, to a one the ones we saw said they had been the aggressor and 2 of them had later married the person.
I do agree this case differs, and I feel the guy needed punished....if for no other reason then his role and job.
and I dont go to the "its a-ok" stand either, I just think we need another term and better laws to deal with cases like this.....
and i saw that, infact on gender discussions (facebook group you should join) I posted that and some other very interesting things similar.
the talk over the link you posted was pretty long,some people even removed posts they made because they commented without fully reading the situation....and without understanding, even if hes removed from the SO reg, hes still a marked man.....all because a mother and daughter where fighting....and because the law has zero flexibility in it, even for a matter of months.
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The internet will make quick work of Judge G. Todd Baugh.
It won't be long now.
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Response to: Akari Mizunashi on Aug 28th, 2013 @ 11:33am
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Which obviously wouldn't apply in this case, and the defendant would probably have known how old she was.
As an aside, the maximum sentence this person could have got under English law would have been 14 years. So maybe this is just part of the differences between the two criminal justice systems.
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Which obviously wouldn't apply here. But then this wasn't an exception, it was a mitigating factor in sentencing. And it doesn't seem to have been the girl's looks that the judge was commenting on, but her understanding of the situation:
So it is more about mental, than physical maturity.
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The girl's involvement/awareness is only a factor in sentencing. Given that, the above stuff, the low risk of re-offending, it seems the judge found that a lengthy prison sentence wasn't proportionate. If locking someone up for 15 years isn't going to do anyone any good, surely it is right not to?
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But "older than her chronological age" should have nothing - literally, absolutely nothing - to do with the sentencing. The Judge really screwed the pooch when he wrote that.
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Personally, I don't think we should.
[That said, I don't think imprisonment should just be about rehabilitation, but about preventing that person from committing further offences. One way of stopping that is to rehabilitate them, another is to lock them up forever. I think the former is more likely to be proportionate. It's a balancing exercise, and one I think is better left to judges who can benefit from arguments from counsel, evidence and facts, than politicians or random people on the Internet.]
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Also it is debatable what the goals in the US Corrections system is.
Four were identified they are:
Retribution, deterrence, incapacitation, and rehabilitation
Whether or not all of them should be the goals is the subject of intense debate to this day in America.
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from for profit private prisons to "treatment" programs that treat everybody send for evaluation even if the evaluation says they dont need treatment and arent a threat/perv/ect)
I say this because I have talked it over with a fellow who runs a treatment program for sex offenders in our area, most of the clinics who do this say everybody needs treatment, his dosnt, he is honest.
note: they once did a "Sting" to see how clinics evaluated people and the diagnoses, and despite showing they where NOT following the evaluation guidelines they did nothing to stop it, because, theres money in it for somebody.
the most common test is the "Able test" it is not what it seems, it asks you to rate a bunch of pictures on how sexualy interesting you find them, none are in any way interesting, and your asked to rate 1-10, the 1-10 means nothing, it actually records how long you look at each image, if you look at each for 5 seconds the test is effectively invalid and useless, mind you even if you look at the images deemed appropriate longer then the ones deemed inappropriate most of these clinics still say you need years of treatment.
i learned alot from this fellow, also learned that at minimum 1/3 of the men convicted of these crimes either didnt do it or are no threat to anybody, and its less then 10% who are truly a danger to society, yet the put huge numbers of low to zero risk people on the web as if they are a threat.
its sad but, because theres money in this shit, they dont try and look at the facts but rather try and get convictions via plees that are backed by threats of 7-35year prison terms if you loose in court....
our state removed the statutory rape laws years go because, they where doing more harm then good, and somebody with some political clout had a son who was hit with a statutory case for dating his highschool gf....amazing what happens when somebody with some clout is effected isnt it....
now the technical rule of law is 16yo's can make their own choices but, if shes 15+ they wont do anything even if the parents raise hell...(directly had a cop tell us this when we tried to report a 25yo living with a 15yo on church grounds rental) the mother didnt care,and she was the one renting he house....(she was living with her boyfriend...)
yes I tried to report it as did others same results...
statutory rape laws suck, they cause more harm then good.
I agree this case is wrong and creepy, but, he did his treatment, and theres no proof it was the relationship that was the cause outside mothers word, I think it more likely the fallout of the situation would be the cause if it had anything to do with the case in the first place.
and remember, in alot of the world, the age dif wouldnt matter in this case, the fact he was a teacher would....but in much of the world at 14 she was legal, and at 17 most of the world she was legal as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent_-_Global.svg
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Statutory rape laws are often abused to go after teenagers in relationships with others who are just beyond what the law considers consent, although there tend to be mitigating factors like Romeo Laws to help with that. But this case doesn't even resemble those cases at all, the man was 3.5 times older than she was; she could have been his grand-daughter!
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its an abuse of possition and influance....but its not rape...
saying this is rape is like saying talking an of age girl into having sex with you is rape...(neofeminists believe this mind you)
some people are more culpable for their choices/actions then others, but, the fact is, many adults are stupid and easily talked into things, and many teens are as well, but I would say you have at least an equal number of teens who are hard to convense to do anything....including stuff like brushing their teeth.....
again im not condoning this assholes actions, but, I also think the girls wishes and emotions needed taken into acct, and thats quite likely why the judge did what he did years ago and did this time despite her offing herself....
I still have yet to see proof she killed herself over the relationship rather then something else.
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Yeah, I bet you do. Regularly. By order of the state....
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part of why he and his partners started the SO treatment was because there was a need for an honest program in the area, most if not all of the others are not about getting people treated but about making 60-85usd a person on "group treatment" that amounts to packet work(that he showed some of us) and sitting around talking 1-3 times a week(at 60-85bucks a time.
do the math
say they do 6 groups a day, 5 days a week, averaging 15 people a group, 2 times a week at 85bucks a head.
thats alot of money, and a good reason to never NEVER let anybody even those who your test say are perfectly normal off without years of "treatment"
and Tim nice attack, I get you dont like or agree with my opinion on this topic...
but I dont agree with your faux news esque blerb on the topic either....it seems you wrote it to fit your very angery view point, intentionally leaving out very important details....like the fact he had completed a treatment program and the sentance wasnt for the "rape" it was for having gotten kicked out of one program for what the judge considered minor violations....or the fact he finished treatment at another location and was/is considered low risk.
I get that you would love nothing more then to see this guys guts on a stick as hes burned at the stake....
but the fact is, most of the world wouldnt call this rape, and your posting about it is VERY misleading, I mean....damn dude when did you get the job working for faux news/msnbs?
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"older than her chronological age."
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Wow...
This isn't right.
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Man in position of power and 14 year old girl.
Man abuses power, grooms 14 year old girl for sex.
Man has sex with 14 year old girl.
Man gets caught.
Man gets 31 days prison time.
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he was in the wrong, he was in a position of power and influance over her, and by law she was to stupid to be able to take responsibility for her choices...
again read the back story, he did treatment, the jail time(not prison) is for being kicked out of one treatment program, despite the fact he finished another one.
its quite likely, reading the story and other info i could find via google, that the reason the judge was so lenient with him(and the DA agreed) was to spare the girl the trauma of a trial and watching him to to prison.
again, he was wrong, he needed punished, but, it wasnt rape by the definition society invisions as rape(forced sex)
if you want to believe 14yo's are to stupid to be responsible for their actions, and wantto believe thats how the law sees them, you need to look how they are treated when they kill people or commit armed robery or send nude pix of themselves to others...in all cases, they are tried as adults.....and punished as adults.
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This is a case of the law being interpreted correctly, even if we do not agree with the law in question. Whether the law should exist in the first place is a whole other question.
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How many times must we explain something before it sinks in?
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My question
Right?
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if it was a male....book would be thrown...
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I can't even...are you a real person?
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she got an $80 fine and some community service, he ended up with brain damage.....pussy pass....
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she fakes sexual assult, attacks him, causes brain damage
gets an $80 fine and some community servce.....thats called a pussy pass.
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So do you think you guise will win ?
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she assaults him, causes serious harm, and gets a $80 fine, probation and some community service.....if a man did the same thing, your talking about jail or even prison time, huge fines and probation for years.
guess thats ok though, because its ok to give females a pass....*rolls eyes*
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http://www.avoiceformen.com/video/false-a llegation-and-assault-at-once/
http://www.kwtx.com/news/headlines/84403687.html?device=phone& device=tablet
"The Daily News Journal of Murfreesboro reports that Michaela Morales, 23, received nearly a year of probation, must perform 24 hours of community service and must pay preacher John McGlone $80 in restitution."
hence pussy pass, less then a year probation, $80 and 24hrs community service for assult....show me a man who did what she did who would get that kinda pass.....
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A lot of prison inmates don't take kindly to child abusers/molesters.
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What kind of a human being are you?
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A quarter of teenagers that age are having sex with each other, are they all rapists?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent_-_Global.svg
more of the world disagrees with them with reguards to this girls ability to concent then agrees...
oh yeah, spain must be full of pedos and pervs, the AoC there is 13.......(yeah thats a bit to young but....its the law there, and their society accepts it and looks at ours like we are insane...so....)
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Could you please do a tally of the number of countries where a 14 year old can consent to sexual intercourse, vs the number of countries where a 14 year old cannot consent? Because when I looked at that diagram, it looks like most countries have an age of consent that is 16 years of age or older.
In fact, better than a country-by-country analysis would be the number of people living in countries where the age of consent is such a number. This would control for population size vs. number of countries.
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Spain to raise age of consent from 13 to 16
Spain is set to raise the age of consent from 13 to 16 years old bringing it in line with its European neighbours.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10089339/Spain-to-raise-age- of-consent-from-13-to-16.html
Wanna stop people calling you a pedo. Stop spewing pedo propaganda, trying to justify Child abuse and defending selfish sickfucks who only care about their OWN sexual desires.
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that way, some people would never be allowed to have sex....since Im sure we have all met people who even at advancd age are not mature enough to deal with an adult relaitonship.
oh btw, may wana read the story behind your link, pressure from outside is driving them to change the law, just as they have been pressured into passing laws to try and stop "piracy"
i really dont give a shit, Im not a pedo, I even avoid contact with minors as a general rule....and anybody who may be minor infact.....
to many who look older then they are and have fake ID's that look legit....not worth the risk....safer to date my hand....
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Anyway, it's too bad this scumbag didn't go to prison to see how he liked being on the receiving end of "buggery without consent" day in and day out for a couple of decades but I think there's more to the story.
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Since the girl was 14, she is not legally able to give consent, hence the sexual intercourse without consent. He did not force himself upon her.
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If she was a student of the guy, he would know her age anyway so how old she "looked" would make no difference whatsoever.
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All the drama and the idiotic plots.
And I believe you may be wrong, the judge showed some compassion in a really shitty situation, one that I don't think people here realize.
If he raped her I would call it a shitty thing, but apparently he didn't, it was a consensual relationship, which even the enraged mother admitted when she stated "his relationship with her lead to her suicide".
This is no rape, it is a fool giving into his sexual fantasies with a willing participant.
The judge talked to the girl, he had the opportunity to avaliate her state of mind we didn't, what did she told him?
She loved the teacher and wanted to be with him for the rest of her life? or he raped me I didn't want to have sex with him at all?
Do you have that information?
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she didnt want him persecuted/prosecuted, others did but she didnt.
i dont have the links here, i found them when i was at home, this is as you say, not rape by the definition the OP and most of the posters here are using....
it is creepy old man and young girl....but its not really rape.
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its not molestation because shes to old to call it that(legally)
I never said this was OK, I just dont view it as the societal image given to rape.
its quite likely the fallout of the relationship coming to light did her more mental harm then the relationship itself.
again, I DO NOT CONDONE THE RELAIONSHIP, its creepy and wrong....he should have been and was punished for it.(read the full story rather then tim's faux news/msnbs version of the story)
we need a new term for this kind of thing, the mental image society attaches to rape is not what happened here...
my state uses "Communicating with a minor for immoral purposes" after they removed statutory rape laws, these are more flexable and allow for some judgement and a defense (say she had a fake ID that looked legit and you met her at 3am at some bar..)
statutory rape laws have no flexibility they dont take anything into acct but age, not the welfare of the "victim" or anything, thats likely why they suspended persecution and made a deal.
once again, i have never said I support this or agree with it, its wrong and creepy, but its not rape.
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http://archiveofthebitingbeaver.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/the-rapist-checklist-repost/
so by that, every guy I know whos not gay is a rapist.
and thats a list by a feminist who really believes its contents, i suggest you read it, then start dating your hand....
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i agree with what you said crade..
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Sex by abuse of power.
Sex by coercion.
Sex by physical force.
Still all rape.
The whole Idea that only physical force is ""real rape"" is complete retarded bullshit imho.
Just like....
Taking your car by deception.
Taking your car by abuse of power.
Taking your car by coercion.
Taking your car by physical force.
It's still all theft. They took your fucking car.
If anything, rape by coercion/deception is probably more mentally damaging. The victim has to wake up every day and think about how stupid they are for being fooled.
You would rather get your car stolen from the street than have given your keys to someone who conned you.
So even the idea that physical forced rape is the "worst" kind of rape is highly questionable.
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read that list, you cant have heterosexual sex without it being rape.
and sory but, if somebody cons you out of something its not the same thing, and, its a life lesson...if you dont learn from it, then your far worse then most teens i have met...most of them learn from their mistakes...but so do most adults.....some never gain that skill.....im starting to think you are one of them.....hope your not sexually active....anybody who has sex with you is a rapist.
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You are retarded if you think that some list will mean you are not a sickfuck.
54 year old teacher. 14 year old girl.
14 years old.
Seriously you are just making yourself look retarded. You are a sickfuck. Deal with it.
You will not convince me that you should be allowed to fuck kids because they say it's ok. Kids repeat anything and at 14 have not developed opinions of their own. All their opinions have been put there by others. If they say it's OK it's because they have been told it is OK by sickfucks like you.
You don't give a fuck about the kids, all they exist for in your eyes is for your sexual desire.
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Think about all the things they had in common and could have shared in life...
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But statutory rape describes a category for case in which an adult has sexual relations with a minor, and even though the minor voiced or appeared to consent, we deem the minor's consent to be invalid because of their age. It seems perfectly fine to me to outlaw this kind of behavior, but I think many people recognize that having sex with someone whose consent is invalid is qualitatively different from having sex with someone who actually does not consent.
In statutory rape cases, a victim's maturity level may well be a relevant issue, but that's because an adult can be guilty of statutory rape even where he did not know the victim was a minor incapable of giving legal consent. Thus, the fact that a minor acts and appears to be an adult would be a mitigating factor. Here, I'm not sure why the victim's maturity is relevant, as the defendant was her teacher, and surely would have know her age (approximately, if not to the day). It does sound like the judge was considering her maturity as a factor weighing in favor of validating the consent she gave -- something like a partial defense to the crime.
The victim's suicide is a tragedy, no matter what precipitated it. Tim, and some other commenters, seem to think that should factor into the judge's decision. I myself am not so sure. I recall that in discussions of the Lori Drew case, in which a young, impressionable girl committed suicide after being harassed by an adult online, the TD community seemed at pains to argue that Drew's actions hadn't caused that tragic suicide. I'm not equating online harassment with rape (whether statutory or otherwise), but I think it's worth comparing the reactions to that case and this one.
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Also, if the statutory rape actually caused or was a factor in her suicide, that would certainly point to her not having been "older than her chronological age" enough to "validate the 'consent' she gave" as you put it.
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Though I think Timothy Geigner presented this case unfairly (an usually his articles are spot on) I also agree that 30 days is a little low.
Obviously age counts a lot when evaluating consent as a mitigation for statutory rape, as the judge evidently did in this case. A 14 year old is at least capable of actually wanting sex.
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many people ended up admitting they view boys as less fragile and more mature then girls, even though they admit girls mature emotionally earlier then boys.
its a social perception in our society that girls need protected and boys need blamed/punished.
again, im not defending this guys actions, he needed punished for his actions, I still content this isnt rape, its abuse of position and influence, and honestly, hes punished quite well now...rest of his life, hes gonna have to struggle to get jobs, places to live, and always have to look over his shoulder for people who want to kill him for being on the SO registry...
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Personally
This has to be the worst result in a case of this nature ever.
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torrent freak CP lovers are here today
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The article was about the Finnish Supreme Court censoring a Finnish site which criticized the government for having a secret block list used to censor sites that host CP. The owner of the site has the position that simply censoring the sites will only make it harder to actually catch the sick fucks making the child porn in the first place. The CP distributors will probably just burrow deep into the dark, seed(ier) parts of the web and become harder to find.
Oh, and there's the fact that the site wasn't hosting or linking to any illegal material it still had to be blocked because protecting the children apparently outweighs freedom of speech in Findland.
[For anyone who's wondering what this AC is babbling about, here's a link to the article in question so you can decide for yourselves]
http://torrentfreak.com/finnish-court-censors-website-that-criticizes-censorship-1308 26/
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It did link to CP sites at one time.
Guy removed the links.
Another further inspection by police later, showed some links to forums etc... were users shared CP
Guy then removed those links too.
His site was blocked.
His site is also called "Child Porn dot info"
His site was setup years ago, before the blocklist.
Does anyone seriously believe he is purely an anti-censorship activist ?
I don't know. If he is... he is pretty fucking stupid at PR. Seriously bad on the site name, the links he exposed that correlate with the site name do not help.
You never know though.
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I guess it's better to be a rapist or murderer, than to try and correct abuses in the American capitalist and insecure system.
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next, if it causes the 14yo more mental harm then cutting the guy a deal then I feel it would be wrong to persecute him and cause her that harm.
if you read the actual story behind this faux newsish blerb tim wrote, you will find he is being tossed in for 30 dys for failing to complete treatment and being kicked out of one program for minor rules violations.
on the other hand, he finished treatment at another location , hence the light 30 day in jail sentence.
and no, i dont condone his actions, its creepy and wrong, but its not rape, again read the case info, its quite likely they gave him the deal they did to spare the girl any more mental harm then had already happened.
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Jailbait
This kind of thing is going to happen more frequently. We've got a mess here in Michigan where a male middle school teacher groomed, then repeatedly molested/raped a male student. Someone sent the parents a photo of an act, and it was posted on a porn site. The story just gets sicker from there and largely went unreported until until the school board president and a group of teachers wrote in letters of support of the molester. The garage of the parents was set on fire and the community is divided. Many parents are adamantly against these teachers holding a position and want them fired, but that would cause a union lawsuit and bankrupt the school system.
At least the rapist is going to serve serious time.
Here's one link: http://eagnews.org/father-of-molested-student-talks-about-his-familys-anguish-and-his-outrage-toward -teachers-who-supported-the-pedophile/
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as is this case, but, this case(the story) still isnt rape....or molestation.
hope they throw the book at the sick fuck you linked though....
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It is.
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by your responses its quite clear you are one of those peole who never will be mature enough to deal with a sexual or adult relationship.
anybody stupid enough to have sex with you should be tossed in prison....
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Deal with sexual relationships and control others for your sexual desires.... two different things pedo apologist.
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WTF Washington Post??
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/former-teacher-in-montana-gets-30-days-in-jail-for-r aping-student-who-later-committed-suicide/2013/08/27/8f3115da-0f60-11e3-a2b3-5e107edf9897_story.html
Horrible choice for the photo of the day :/
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and yes the image is fucking lulzy as hell......im still snickering.....
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Are literally full of shit about...
only physically forced rape is ""real rape"" hurr fucking durr, only physically robbed person is "real robbed" person.
Also... you literally can't stop sucking pedo cocks
But agree that, that pic is unreal lulzy.
Still think your kids will be fucked if you keep that attitude of yours. Probably when they are 13 by one of your friends.
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Unlike some sick fucks(the ac here for example) I dont feel the best method to "protect" kids is to treat them like they are idiots.
teach them to take responsibility for their actions, teach them the facts, let them make their own choices, and help them learn from their mistakes.
I do find it funny that if this where a 14yo boy who murdered somebody people would be fine with adult charges being filed and them being held culpable for their actions.
but because its a girl who choose to have sex at 14, shes a delecate flower who was in no way to blame for that choice.
and again, what this guy did was horrible and sickening, but it wasnt rape, it was an abuse of power, position and influence, and hes been punished for it....
and he will be punished for it for the rest of his life....
i know to some thats not enough but to me.....well, im shocked he didnt just commit suicide when he was put on the SO registry....once you are labled a sex offender, you cant get meaningful work, you cant live most places, and you constantly have to worry about being attacked by some nut who saw you on a website and decided to take the law into their own hands.
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54 year old impresses and lures kid.... for his sexual desire.
Good luck teaching kids on how to deal with that. They couldn't even comprehend the reality of "they only want sex".
Understanding and comprehending are two totally different things btw.
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1) He was a teacher who's job it is to guide, train, and PROTECT students.
2) He is an adult. Even if she was willing and initiated it, he should have known it was wrong and said no.
Because he failed at both of these and took advantage of a child he suffered several consequences (well deserved). However; he also should have had a much, much longer jail term not only because deserved it, but also as a deterrent to others.
Finally anyone defending or attempting to justify this guys actions should not be left alone with children.
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What if he wasn't sleeping with her but just supplying alcohol? Would that be alright as she was the one who wanted to drink?
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Yep, life-time in jail, let him be raped there and find out what its like. He DESERVES IT.
And now you know how some politicians think, congrats, you're on your way to making laws based on emotions and fear rather than cold hard logic.
"How do you justify the rape of a 14---" Ah, ah, ah. You're doing it again. Not justifying, just pointing out the lack of research given to the subject because of conclusion jumping.
Yep, this is how bad laws get made.
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1) The origin of statutory rape laws was that it was determined that minors, those under 18, cannot be considered to have the experience (key word there, this is something that you simply cannot get other than with age) necessary to make the judgement to have sexual relationships with anyone.
2) This was a relationship, because the teacher was reported to have had sex with the girl multiple times. Being in a sexual relationship with someone over an extended period of time carries responsibilities on both parties: here, one of them was a 14 year old girl who has much more to be doing with her life than banging a guy four times her age. No matter how bright or mature she was or seemed to be, at age 14, she has not had the life experience to be able to cope with having a relationship with a much older man.
3) The teacher was in a position of authority over her. No matter how benign the girl may have said the relationship was, at some point during it, she would have had to have thought "he's got power over me, can make my life worse in some fashion" or words to that effect. No way she didn't.
4) I've heard from other commentators that in this judge's area, there's supposed to be a minimum sentence of 25 years. If true, the judge is ignoring his own laws, which is not what a judge is supposed to be doing: judges are to enforce the law as it is written, not re-interpret it or ignore it completely (hence the outrage over the secretive rulings of the FISA court that redefine common language)
5) When considering rulings, there has to be a thought as to the message it will spread to those considering committing the same crime. Here, a message has been sent to potential future child rapists to go ahead, it's a slap on the wrist if the kid falls in love with you.
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By letting this man off with only 30 days in prison because the girl "was older than her chronological age" and "as much in control of the situation", we are sending a message to child predators - find a young girl, groom her until she initiates a relationship, and then if you get caught, your lawyer can cite this court case.
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Backing things up with evidence is the best way to determine where the screw ups in the laws are. This is especially important when looking objectively at laws concerning topics we dislike.
It's tough, but it's important.
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Just look at the shitstorm above.
Stick to TECH dirt... not just dirt. Please.
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However, what about this particular dirt, exactly, is tech related?
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All there in the title.
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The article doesn't say he was sentenced to 30 days due to the Internet being mean (or because the girl looked kinda old).
Which was my original gripe with this post. But that seems to have got a bit out of control.
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A lack of info
There is a distinct lack of info in most of the articles that makes me question the narrative of this.
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Again, statutory rape laws say that no matter how much the child says yes, as far as the law is concerned, that consent is invalid for very good reasons. Also, from what I see in the comments here on TD, most of them aren't focusing on the suicide.
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I mean, when I try to think of legitimate excuses for a 49 year old teacher to have an intimate relationship with a 14 year old student...you know, I just can't come up with any at all.
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Still, that excuse would be about as effective as trying to stop a bullet with unrolled paper towels.
But as far as viable reasons go, this guy has none, especially considering that the school district he worked for told in back in '04 not to be alone with female students. That was FOUR YEARS before he started having a relationship with the 14-year-old girl.
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First, doesn't even 15 years for a teacher raping a student seem on the light side, particularly when that student subsequently killed herself?
feels like a dangerous attitude. I know that's the easy gut reaction, but do we really want the sentence to depend on how resilient the victim is? The emotional impact on the victim doesn't really change how morally wrong the act itself was. In effect, this would be saying to victims who are particularly emotionally resilient "We don't think your rape is as bad as other rapes, because you don't seem as upset".
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For example, consider assault up to and including murder. It can be a matter of luck or some tough bones or something that a person survives, and we take it for granted that it makes a huge difference for the severity of the crime. Not just intent or even actions carried out, but their results.
I think it's called "moral luck", at least there is a book by that title.
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Just Repeal. Now.
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I do think he needed punished, and I feel he has been(and will be for the rest of his life)
but alot of these people think he should have gotten life in prison or better the death penalty...
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I have one basic question:
What is legal rape?
This being the US we are discussing it could be as little as some girl seeing some guy take a piss on the side of the road with a normal reasonable definition stretched all out of kilter.
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a cure for the problem
sew the hole shut, that should fix the problem of girls having sex before they are ready.....should prevent guys from sullying their pure little bodies....they can have the stitching removed when they pass a maturity test or hit 25....hows that sound?
i mean, after all, we cant agree on an age even within the us it ranges from 14-19, so, perhaps the best idea is to protect them by making sure they cant make bad choices....including sticking things in there....
if a man violates this, remove his genitals or, just kill him outright.... girls/women need protected from males and themselves....
/sarc
again, I dont agree with what he did, he needed punished, he got punished.
as to the suicide, we dont know the facts behind why she did it, just a mothers anguish and laying blame....
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Things like this should be a case by case basis
Honestly everyone develops differently, and at different rates. Some girl at 14 can be far more mature then somebody at 20. In the end its all pointless numbers, and cases like these should be judged by a per case bases, if the judge concludes she/he was mature and capable, and she/he gave consent, then I see no reason for a issue, 'society' should have no say complex personal matters, regardless if people think its creepy.
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Human sexual and social development is complex, there should never be a "one size fits all" solution for such matters.
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we had alot of members, one thing that always shocked me was how many of the teens in the group where more mature and level headed then their parents.
parents would blow up and act irrational, the kids would stay calm and think things out.
the parents would run on emotion and make snap decisions/judgement, the kids many times would again, stay calm and think things out before making a choice.
by kids, 12-16 range was common in our groop, male and female.
having worked at churches for many years running sound boards and such I can say i saw similar at the church, many times the teen group had more level heads then the church board or adults of the church.
also saw alot of bad choices by adults and kids in my time, some people never grow up or learn from life, and that wont change.
a few of the most reliable people at the last church i worked at where teens from the teen group, they would show up when they heard stuff needed done and would pitch in, they also would deal with some of the older folks and get them out of the way without the fight that would have happened had I tried the same thing....
No, I didnt have any sexual interest in any of the teens, I just was shocked how level headed so many of them where compared to their elders....
I think part of it was, many of them where there not for the religious aspect so much as for the belonging to a group that wasnt involved in drugs and such.
they had some very questionable choices among the group, some of the worst by the woman who ran(runs) it, she would have church sleepovers(lockins) and not have enough people watching what was going on, you would walk in and find teens sleeping togather (never caught humping but im sure it happened), but, she was a 46yo woman who should know better then to allow that.....
again, it just shocks me when people say teens cant reason or understand ramifications of their choices..and shouldnt be allowed to make choices....
I was allowed to fuck up as i grew up, and i learned from it....
hell, At times I would let them do something wrong so they would learn, many times they would cotton on long before they actually screwed up and would fix it(like putting stuff on shelves or stacking tables or dozens of other things)
adults on the other hand where known to often do things wrong/half arsed, then just leave it that way because....fuck it why bother fixing it..no downside to leaving ti that way, somebody else would fix it....
meh, im sure we will both be called pedos again, but biology and psychology are powerful forces, and teens on average arent as stupid as people think...
hell alot of times I have seen teens go from smart to dumb due to social pressure and examples they follow.....gotta fit in you know....
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CNN for example says the girl committed suicide (over 2 years later) but did not give a reason, implying it was due to the rape.
It could just have easily been that she was seriously infatuated with the guy, still was, and was despondent over the damage she'd done to his life.
When a 14yo and an adult end up in close proximity, it is always (always!( the adult's responsibility to ensure nothing illegal or harmful happens to the child. Unless she drugged him, tied him up and jumped his bones - he is responsible for the act and its consequences. If she said :let me drive your car" and he let her, he'd be responsible. If he let her drink his alcohol and go out and walk in front of a truck, he'd be responsible. This is no different.
However, you can't always control who you love (or more likely, become infatuated with). If there was no evidence of predation. if it was a consensual affair, then what's the value in 20 years behind bars. His life is already in ruins - based on loss of career, sex offender status, and other cruel and unusual punishments of modern American law.
I would have though a year or two would be the appropriate sentence, especially if the girl's suicide was due to he mess the prosecutor was putting the guy through.
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she admitted he was out cold, that she took his pants off and such, but hes still a sex offender...note: i saw tape of her testimony and she made it very clear she jummped him and he had no idea till the cops showed up after she blabbed to another friend....
again IT DOSNT MATTER HOW IT HAPPENS THE MAN IS GUILTY!!!
I do agree with what your saying but thats not how our system in this country works...
and be prepared your going to be called a rape appologist, pedophile and so on and so forth for not saying the guy needs burned at the stake or life in prison or similar.
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There's no link between the suicide and the sex itself. It was all the trouble surrounding this that was too much for her.
These kinds of laws are terrible, especially when they are forced upon people who have no wish to be labeled as victims.
In the not too far past, young adults (age 12 and up) married and constructed lives together. Modern society redefined the parameters of childhood/adulthood. Only when the masses of society feel besieged by actions they consider socially unacceptable do they re-designate the individual as an �Adult� and meat out justice in accordance with the new denomination.
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Statutory Rape
Respectfully, L
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Im glad you let them know your story, since so many here feel teens are all airheaded nitwits who cant make any choices or learn from their mistakes....
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"People please don't say rude things to me..."
Seems she is a little flower that needs protecting.
From her explanation, I guess most men today can tell you what it is like to be an astronaut since most daydreamed about it in school.
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Statutory Rape
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1. it wasnt rape like you and he imply.
2. she likely killed herself due to the harm their relationship did to him not because of the relationship itself.
3. this jail time isnt for rape or even statutory rape, its for being kicked out of a treatment program, despite the fact he joined another one and completed treatment and on top of that is considered low risk (not a threat to anybody)
ah the joys of the internet, people jump to conclusions and want a guys guts on a stick(well in this case 2 guys, the judge and the creepy old man who had sex with this girl years ago...)
again, I dont agree with what he did, it wasnt ok, but he has been punished, he will be punished the rest of his life, he didnt force her to have sex with him, he didnt kill her.
He did something really fucking creepy and stupid....but it was not rape no matter what the law may say(actually, if you read the charge, it wasnt even a rape charge...rapes not part of the charge wording at all....)
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And a non-sportsperson who went to meet up with a 14yo girl who was an undercover cop was found not guilty because the idiotic jury believed his "I knew the person I was talking to wasn't 14. Her words looked like someone pretending to be 14" - now even if that was true, why would you go and meet up someone pretending to be underage?
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If you suspect a cop might be pulling this, engage "her" in conversation through an anonymous proxy or other method to hide your IP address.
Set up a meeting at a motel.
A bit before the meeting is to take place, go to a restaurant near the motel.
Enjoy your meal and a hearty laugh while looking out the window at the cops making asses of themselves!
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Info
First of all people, he did NOT rape the girl. He was convicted of *statutory* rape, and while I don't personally condone what he did, you need to understand this was not a matter of sexual assault.
Second, the girl did not kill herself because of the relationship. The Prosecution had a weak case and put her under enormous pressure to take the stand and testify. Even though she was not named, everyone at her school knew who she was and she was subjected to a lot of ridicule. Because the other kids knew damn well she was nailing her teacher.
The last point people are missing is this was not the initial sentencing. He was sentenced some time ago, and while I personally think he got off easy, there was no outcry at that time. This sentencing was because he violated the terms of his plea bargain, and the public outrage is because people have short memories and the local media has made sure to only use the word "rape", as opposed to a more accurate phrase such as "sex with a minor".
Now just for the record, I personally think the judge should have thrown the book at him for not complying with his initial sentence. And this isn't the first time this guy has run his mouth off and made an idiot out of himself.
But people are really making a lot more out of it than they should. As far as I'm concerned, the only one who victimized the girl was the Prosecuting attorney.
Billings is a pretty small town, barely over 100k in population, and local politics runs through this story in ways which are not obvious to people who aren't from here.
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to bad that the persecution had to drive her to kill herself.
I would bet they made threats of her going to jail/prison and such as well, as thats quite common if they cant get you to do what they want.....anything to get what they want, even if its creating a victim.
as to the students.....well, i really doubt it was THAT bad, i mean kids can be cruel but, also tend to have short memories as well, most of the issue Im willing to bet falls back on the DA and the Cops who couldnt just let this go for her sake of nothing else.
and Im betting why they didnt throw the book, weak case as you said, hard to get a conviction when you cant get anybody to testify to somebodies guilt....
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C'mon, that's a tragedy written between the pages of a penal code and a milkshake shared in a Bar...
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The teacher get only 30 days to pass as an inmate and... A RUINED LIFE!!!
C'mon, how many of you watch Teen Porn on DVDs or at an XXX Cinema?!
Admit that!
How many of you look at a sexy girl with the tongue off the mouth?!
Admit that!!!
Ok, ok.. the teacher raped the girl ( or is the girl who raped teacher's mind? )... nay, right, he has no excuse but he is a man and all we, men, are beasts...
Yeah, we say we have a brain, we have "God" on our side, we are proud and strong... How many efforts to hide the fact all we are beasts!!!
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Like Romeo and Juliet. Juliet is only 13 and most definitely older than her age. Views on age differences in sexual relations really depends on social norms which vary with culture and time. Gay rights are advancing all the time. How do we know our views on age wont simply be considered bigoted a few centuries down the road?
The fact that she committed suicide is sad indeed. But there are still far too many suicides from bullying. Which is worse: Sex or bullying? It all depends on the circumstances.
Last thing I want in America is justice run by angry mobs (online or not). Mob justice simply distracts people from channeling their rage into more constructive changes like pushing reform and prevention.
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Sixteen going on seventeen...
So, what has changed so drastically in those 60 seconds? Why was she unable to consent just one minute before?
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