Since The RIAA & MPAA Say That A Copy Is Just As Valuable As The Original, Send Them A Copy Of Money
from the proving-a-point dept
As a bunch of folks have been pointing out, in response to the Paul Graham essay on property that we were just discussing, a guy by the name of Jake Gold set up SendThemYourMoney.com, which is a site encouraging you to send "money" to the RIAA/MPAA. But... by "money" he means "copies" of money, since the RIAA/MPAA's whole argument is based on the idea that a copy is no different than the original:The ProblemFurther instructions are on the site, including a copy of a dollar bill which I've also copied here (theft!).
The MPAA & RIAA claim that the internet is stealing billions of dollars worth of their property by sharing copies of files. They're willing to destroy the internet with things like SOPA & PIPA in an attempt to collect that money.
The Solution
Let's just pay them the money! They've made it very clear that they consider digital copies to be just as valuable as the original. That makes it a lot easier to pay them back in two ways: a. We can email them scanned images of dollar bills instead of bulky paper and b. We don't have to worry about the hassle of shipping huge quantities of cash.
Of course, there's a concern. We also hear from folks at the RIAA/MPAA and their supporters all the time about how all this copying "devalues" the content. So I'm a bit worried that Jake's little plan here is going to totally devalue US currency and drive the world into a massive recession. Clearly, that's the only possible result of this kind of plan (if we're using RIAA/MPAA logic).
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Oh my!
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Re: Oh my!
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Re: Oh my!
Copying money is considered counterfeiting... which is a felony in the US.
Source: Experience.
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Re: Re: Oh my!
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Re: Re: Re: Oh my!
Unfortunately for you, the law is most definitely not on your side, whether it be a printing plate or a digital file.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh my!
if having images of money is illegal...then our own govt is in trouble....big trouble....
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh my!
Quote the law that states an image is illegal.
Thanks.
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Re: Re: Oh my!
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Re: Re: Oh my!
Only if it is the same size as real money.
An image of a dollar bill half the size or ten times the size of real money is obviously not intended to deceive anyone that it is real cash.
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Do they accept pesos?
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Re: Do they accept pesos?
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Re: Do they accept pesos?
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cp dollar.jpg dollar$i.jpg;
done
zip IOU.zip dollar*.jpg
# then attach and mail
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works in bash
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See: 31 C.F.R. PART 411
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See: 31 C.F.R. PART 411
I was just thinking that too -- I wonder if/when Mike will get another visit from the Secret Service. More ammunition for the trolls to jump on; "Techdirt encourages counterfeiting currency."
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Re: Re:
§ 411.1 Color illustrations authorized.
(a) Notwithstanding any provision of chapter 25 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, authority is hereby given for the printing, publishing or importation, or the making or importation of the necessary plates or items for such printing or publishing, of color illustrations of U.S. currency provided that:
(1) The illustration be of a size less than three-fourths or more than one and one-half, in linear dimension, of each part of any matter so illustrated;
(2) The illustration be one-sided; and
(3) All negatives, plates, positives, digitized storage medium, graphic files, magnetic medium, optical storage devices, and any other thing used in the making of the illustration that contain an image of the illustration or any part thereof shall be destroyed and/or deleted or erased after their final use in accordance with this section.
(b) [Reserved]
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Send in the SS.
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(1) it's not to scale?
(2) that it's one dimensional as on a screen and not able to see both sides of the physical bill?
(3) it's possible to erase or delete said copy?
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Here's one to get you started:
______________________________________________________________________
|.============[_F_E_D_E_R_A_L___R_E_S_E_R_V_E___N_O_T_E_]=============.|
||%&%&%&%_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ %&%&%&%&||
||%&.-.&/||_||_ | ||\||||_| \ (_ ||\||_(_ /\|_ |\|V||_|)|/ |\ %&.-.&&||
||&// |\ || ||_ \_/| ||||_|_/ ,_)|||||_,_) \/| ||| ||_|\|\_|| &// |\%||
||| | | |% ,-----,-'____'-,-----, %| | | |||
||| | | |&% """""""""" [ .-;"`___ `";-. ] &%| | | |||
||&\===// `).'' .'`_.- `. '.'.(` A 76355942 J \\===/&||
||&%'-'%/1 // .' /` \ \\ \%'-'%||
||%&%&%/` d8888b // / \ _ _;, \\ .-"""-. 1 `&%&%%||
||&%&%& 8P |) Yb ;; ( > a a| \ ;; //A`Y A\\ &%&%&||
||&%&%| 8b |) d8 || ( ,\ \ | ) || ||.-'-.|| |%&%&||
||%&%&| Y8888P || '--'/` -- /-' || \\_/~\_// |&%&%||
||%&%&| || |\`-.__/ || '-...-' |&%&%||
||%%%%| || /` |._ .|-. || |%&%&||
||%&%&| A 76355942 J /;\ _.' \ } \ '-. /;\ |%&%&||
||&%.-; (, '. \ } `\ \' ,) ,.,.,.,., ;-.%&||
||%( | ) 1 """"""" _( \ ;...---------.;.; / )_ ```""""""" 1 ( | )%||
||&%'-'==================\`------------------`/=================='-'%&||
||%&JGS&%&%&%&%%&%&&&%&%%&)O N E D O L L A R(%&%&%&%&%&%&%%&%&&&%&%%&||
'""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""`
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That's because web-based text editors rarely allow you to have more than a single space between characters. They normally delete any extra spaces. Also, it won't look right unless you're viewing it with a fixed-width font.
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> this bandwagon (unless, of course, you like
> evening visits by the Secret Service).
> See: 31 C.F.R. PART 411
More like 18 USC 470-484
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Good idea
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Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
The example also explains what I've also been saying all along: rampant copying steals from the honest people who pay for their content. It's not stealing from the studios, it's stealing from the little guys who are played like fools for supporting the artist.
This is why we have laws against counterfeiting. But I don't expect you to understand any of this.
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Except, you know...
Scans or pictures of money isn't counterfeiting.
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
LEARN WHAT COUNTERFEITING MEANS.
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
All the other stories of piracy and counterfeiting have missed your words of enlightenment!
Hey, everybody! bob's here! Piracy all the way, WOO!
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Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Wait.. no.
Bob, THE bob? Like, for reals or just some fool with the same name?
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/06/communities-print-own-cur_n_183497.html
https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_currency
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
It's only counterfeiting if it's actually PRINTED in the attempt to pass it off as legitimate currency, you moron.
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Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
> PRINTED in the attempt to pass it off as
> legitimate currency, you moron.
Not true. Counterfeit currency is contraband and as such mere possession is enough to violate the law. Just like drugs.
18 USC 471
Also, one need not actually print the image onto paper in order to violate the law:
18 USC 474
Whoever, with intent to defraud, makes, executes, acquires, scans, captures, records, receives, transmits, reproduces, sells, or has in such person's control, custody or possession, an analog, digital, or electronic image of any obligation or other security of the United States... is guilty of a Class B felony.
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Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
You just broke your point in the same post.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
> You just broke your point in the same post.
No, I didn't. The claim was that it's not counterfeiting if "it's actually PRINTED in the attempt to pass it off as legitimate currency".
My response addressed that erroneous claim and nothing more.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
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You honestly think the Secret Service is going to go after people for emailing a jpg of one side of a dollar?
Really?
Stranger things have happened, but if the Secret Service wants to make incredible fools of themselves... I guess let's see them try.
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2) Image not to scale.
3) Single sided image.
Makes for a tough case.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
> for emailing a jpg of one side of a dollar?
I can speak with some authority that they won't. There are much bigger fish to fry.
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Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
So unless they were printed you they would have to prove that you INTENDED to print them and pass them off as legitimate currency. Yeah. Web images qualify for that.
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Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
"If people can make their own copies without paying their fair share of the development costs, no one will invest in the system. "
Bob, all those successful free-to-copy services would like to have a word with you. I watch Youtube and copy their videos for free (it has to be copied, otherwise how would it work?) and yet...its still online.
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Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
you expect him to understand this?
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
So since you like paywalls, are you in favor of paywalls that accept legitimate copies of paper money (provided that they are authenticated by a DRM of course.)
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Can't be a legacy system supporter without thinking your customers are fools. No wonder they're in such a mess.
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
IF you're the Federal Reserve.
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Stossel Dollars
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
You can't destroy the value of cash, you just divide it. The value exists in the thing for which the cash is merely a placeholder.
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Try investing something that has true equity,: time, research, effort. Not a fictional currency that is backed by nothing and acrues debt from the moment you "earn it". Which is taxed, then if you use it to survive its taxed, then you pay tax on property.
Debt=slavery
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
http://www.kickstarter.com/pages/creativecommons
Then clearly that page can't exist... but it does... funny that.
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Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
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Irony
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I'm pretty sure that taking pictures of dollar bills is not illegal, unless you can prove otherwise. I won't hold my breath.
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It is possible that the value will come from educating people outside the RIAA/MPAA. I have already had a discussion about the project with someone who is strongly pro-IP. It did serve as a useful example of how a physical item and an copy of the physical item are different. The discussion started with him maintaining that the digital copy isn't really a copy because it isn't physical like the dollar bill. But that opened the door to me asking how a file of music was a physical object any more than the file containing the picture of the dollar bill is a physical object. I asked how having an .mp3 file extension makes it any more physical than a .jpg extension. He has finally come around (for the first time) to admitting there is a difference between a physical good and a digital good. One small victory at a time!
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Heh. A lot of modern scanners have recognition software that won't let you scan US currency. I know because I have tried to scan real money for use in graphic designs.
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It warns you that you can't scan money, but then it will do it anyways.
I've scanned a bunch of our Cdn money for a photoshoot.
Still have the scans. I also scanned an old American dollar from the 1930s...maybe it doesn't recognize it as real money.
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Oh, so is that the cause of our economic failure? Everyone has been downloading copied dollar bills. THIEVES!!! PIRATES!!!
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Personally it makes me all warm inside and puts me to sleep knowing that I can have full faith in others to look out for my best interest.
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Mar 14th, 2012 @ 2:34pm
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Then sue them for placing copies of your picture on their email server, on the local machine of whoever received the email, on their email backup servers ...
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On another note to all the people saying that having digital images of Federal Reserve Notes is illegal. Search google images for "dollar bills." Should all of these sites be shut down because they have digital images of FRN's on their site, which promote [insert scare tactic]?
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AFAIK, it's perfectly legal to pass around an image of a bill so long as it isn't of super-high quality and I thought that the US government even made moderate-resolution images of US currency available specifically for use in artwork.
PS: Being a work of the US government, there are no copyrights attached to US currency and they are in the public domain, copyright-wise.
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> are no copyrights attached to US currency and
> they are in the public domain, copyright-wise.
Yes, the prohibition on copying money has nothing to do with copyright. It's a separate crime in and of itself and has its own separate constitutional authority in Article I, Section 8.
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The laws against counterfeiting also quite a bit looser than copyright. For example, it's legal to make play money that use the image of a dollar bill, so long as it meets certain restrictions on size and quality, but it's illegal to make play Monopoly (R) money.
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And digital copies of motion pictures are also bits that are obviously different from the series of original images captured on celluloid.
BTW the law (previously quoted) says nothing about having to be used for artwork only that there can't be an "intent to defraud".
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"It's counterfeiting!", "scans and digital copies of notes isn't counterfeiting!"
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Dont worry Mike, the Fed has that covered. ;)
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Suggestion...
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wait... i already did...
might as well hit F5 a few thousand times & then go shopping.
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Copies
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Re: Copies
Seems a perfect solution to me.
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Let's just pay them the money! They've made it very clear that they consider digital copies to be just as valuable as the original. That makes it a lot easier to pay them back in two ways: a. We can email them scanned images of dollar bills instead of bulky paper and b. We don't have to worry about the hassle of shipping huge quantities of cash.
------------------------------------------------------------
What a ridiculous suggestion and I hope this article is tongue in cheek because I cannot believe that a well respected tech blog would advocate such a thing. If it is tongue in cheek I will look foolish (something I can live with) and if it is not I will be attacked.
I am very much anti SOPA/PIPA/ACTA as I believe in a free Internet where we can give our opinions without reproach. However, I am also anti piracy as I believe we should pay for available content when it is available and we can afford it and if we cannot afford it we should go without. This article, if serious, is saying that we should simply take what we want and say "screw you" to the media industry. How exactly does that make you any better than the shady things that the media industry has gotten away with in the past?
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silly, but serious question...
Fan F really like Band B... Fan F would really like to buy song S from band B, but can't because he lacks money or lives in the wrong area of the world...
Fan F is already suffering, he either has no money or has to speak French or something...
there are already physical things/limited resources he cant have thanks to his predicament that may not be his fault...
either way, hasn't he already suffered enough? why cant he just download a copy?
how exactly would Fan F downloading Song S hurt band B in any way?
band B still has all their songs (that they haven't signed away the rights to), they haven't lost a sale, as a sale would be impossible. how are they hurt?
in the absence of harm, we should just "go without" to create harm? is there some moral imperative that harm must be created?
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I will aend them a photo of my penny jar.
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carrot, stick, cliff
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Re: carrot, stick, cliff
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Re: carrot, stick, cliff
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It really would be great if I only could.
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First off, a copy of money (if you make it the right size) will get you legal troubles. It is essentially as valuable as the real thing. Sending it to the record labels would effectively be counterfeiting. I really don't recommend it.
Further, let's be clear here. Some things copy and retain value, and some things don't.
You are so busy trying to prove yourself clever Mike, instead you just come off as a nasty dickhead. Sorry, it's my opinion.
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Nah, it's a well-established fact.
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How could emailing a picture of a dollar be counterfeiting? What kind of idiot thinks he can spend an image of a dollar on his screen? It's not printed on paper, so clearly the laws pertaining to importation/printing/publishing do not apply, moron. Keep making shit up, you nasty dickhead.
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Apparently these kind of idiots.
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Says the guy to busy proving Mike wrong he must try to ignore the fact the whole thing is about DIGITAL copies. Thus you just come off as a nasty dickhead. Sorry, it's my opinion.
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Bitches love DRM
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stolen smells
http://www.storymuseum.org.uk/1001stories/detail/181/the-smell-of-bread.html
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Money obtains its value by the way in which it is accepted by society i.e. it can be exchanged for goods and services, and has value. There is no value in a copy (especially a digital copy), as it cannot enjoy the same use as the original.
There is, however, some value in a digital copy of a song or movie. I'm not specifically talking about dollar value, but in the use of the original vs the use of the copy. People are able to enjoy the same content and use as the original.
Not a very good comparison in my opinion, and I think this weakens the argument against the ridiculous claims which are made by the MPAA & RIAA.
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why pirate?
WHY ON EARTH DOES ANYONE PIRATE MUSIC??
It makes absolutely no sense to me.
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http://www.axifile.com/en/32EEAD9997
here are some emails..
ContatUs@mpaa.org
antipiracy@mpaa.org
antipiracy@riaa.com
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in the format the consumer wants
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That's why counterfeiting is illegal.
A. That will devalue the currency due to inflation of the money supply. (That's also why it's bad when the government does it legally. Same result: inflation.)
B. Printing copies of money is illegal in all countries in the world because ... see A above.
This analogy only works if you scan, print and use the scanned currency. If you put a CD in a scanner and scan the art and put that scanned picture of the CD on the internet for people to download, they can't play the songs. Nobody's suggesting they care of you scan the CD art work ... although I'm sure they'd complain about it.
So, in fact this is a good analogy for the copyright maximalists. They would say that copying copyrighted infinite goods and putting them on the internet devalues them in the same way as counterfeiting money, if unchecked, will devalue that money. And that's why, they'd say, that the prohibition of counterfeiting is strongly enforced and that's exactly why the prohibition of copying copyrighted goods should be strongly enforced too.
In fact the marginal cost of printing another currency bill is very low also, compared to its value in circulation. But we all know that printing a huge supply of paper money will not add value to the economy.
To summarize, I think that copyright as it is currently practiced is broken and I also think scanning and printing currency as a analogy to devaluing copyrighted infinite goods is an argument FOR strong copyright enforcement just like counterfeiting laws.
Or did I miss something?
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There is a better metaphor, as you know very well Mike
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Re: There is a better metaphor, as you know very well Mike
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http://www.moneyfactory.gov/uscurrency/smalldenominations.html
I am sending the entertainment industry a digital copy of a hundred dollars.
http://www.moneyfactory.gov/images/252_New100front2.jpg
http://www.secretservice.gov/ money_illustrations.shtml
And if the secret service didn't go after Wikipedia I doubt they will come after anyone else using it for fun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_one_dollar_bill,_obverse.jpg
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Re:
Empirical Evidence?
"There needs to be more a conversation between the RIAA/MPAA and the public on the impact that stolen content is having on the industry."
First let me FTFY...
There needs to be more a conversation BETWEEN the RIAA/MPAA and the public on the impact that shared content MAY be having on the industry.
"Then there should be a public policy discussion between the tech industry, content producers and the public as we come up with a way to address this issue."
"Conversation" and "discussion" require two way communication and they aren't interested in listening, only dictating.
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contactus@mpaa.org
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When was the last time you have heard about rich people pirating music and movies? I can't remember, can you? What sets them apart from the people who do pirate music and movies?
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oh dear
Copyright infringement.
Want to share?
Copyright infringement.
Very soon our only option is to ignore copyright.
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oh dear
Copyright infringement.
Want to share?
Copyright infringement.
Very soon our only option is to ignore copyright.
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