Since The RIAA & MPAA Say That A Copy Is Just As Valuable As The Original, Send Them A Copy Of Money

from the proving-a-point dept

Wed, Mar 14th 2012 1:54pm — Mike Masnick

As a bunch of folks have been pointing out, in response to the Paul Graham essay on property that we were just discussing, a guy by the name of Jake Gold set up SendThemYourMoney.com, which is a site encouraging you to send "money" to the RIAA/MPAA. But... by "money" he means "copies" of money, since the RIAA/MPAA's whole argument is based on the idea that a copy is no different than the original:

The Problem

The MPAA & RIAA claim that the internet is stealing billions of dollars worth of their property by sharing copies of files. They're willing to destroy the internet with things like SOPA & PIPA in an attempt to collect that money.

The Solution

Let's just pay them the money! They've made it very clear that they consider digital copies to be just as valuable as the original. That makes it a lot easier to pay them back in two ways: a. We can email them scanned images of dollar bills instead of bulky paper and b. We don't have to worry about the hassle of shipping huge quantities of cash.

Further instructions are on the site, including a copy of a dollar bill which I've also copied here (theft!).

Of course, there's a concern. We also hear from folks at the RIAA/MPAA and their supporters all the time about how all this copying "devalues" the content. So I'm a bit worried that Jake's little plan here is going to totally devalue US currency and drive the world into a massive recession. Clearly, that's the only possible result of this kind of plan (if we're using RIAA/MPAA logic).

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Filed Under: copies, money
Companies: mpaa, riaa

149 Comments

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Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 1:59pm

Oh my!
Does anybody have a scan of a dollar I can buy?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
�l Magnifico, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:05pm

Do they accept pesos?
I would like to contribute.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:08pm

as long as the RIAA/MAFIAA etc are getting what they want, does anyone think they would care if the US economy went into recession forever or not?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:10pm

Re: Oh my!
using Hollywood accounting, that will cost you about $150,000. that ok?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
MahaliaShere (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:10pm

Alright now all I need is a program to copy it a few million times.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:10pm

Uh....I would think twice before jumping on this bandwagon (unless, of course, you like evening visits by the Secret Service).

See: 31 C.F.R. PART 411
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Suja (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:11pm

Re: Do they accept pesos?
money is money
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The Bernake, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:11pm

Good idea
The Fed is *waaaaayyyy* ahead of you...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
bob, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:11pm

Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
The world of currency and the effects of counterfeiting is a good proof of what I've been saying all along: copying destroys value. If people can make their own copies without paying their fair share of the development costs, no one will invest in the system.

The example also explains what I've also been saying all along: rampant copying steals from the honest people who pay for their content. It's not stealing from the studios, it's stealing from the little guys who are played like fools for supporting the artist.

This is why we have laws against counterfeiting. But I don't expect you to understand any of this.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Suja (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:14pm

Re:
Can't you just spam that image a few million times or however many times E-mail lets you attach/embed it?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
silverscarcat (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:14pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Yeah... There are laws against counterfeiting...

Except, you know...

Scans or pictures of money isn't counterfeiting.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:15pm

Irony
Oh the irony! I love it!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:15pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
No, that is not why Counterfeiting is illegal moron.

LEARN WHAT COUNTERFEITING MEANS.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:15pm

Thanks for the buck!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:17pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
And suddenly a thousand professors of economics, finance, logic, and law cried out in terror.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:17pm

Using or printing images of US currency is a federal crime. It must be of adequately dissimilar size, marked as a sample, and low resolution.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
ltlw0lf (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:17pm

Re:
Uh....I would think twice before jumping on this bandwagon (unless, of course, you like evening visits by the Secret Service).

See: 31 C.F.R. PART 411

I was just thinking that too -- I wonder if/when Mike will get another visit from the Secret Service. More ammunition for the trolls to jump on; "Techdirt encourages counterfeiting currency."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Chosen Reject (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:18pm

Re: Re: Do they accept pesos?
Well yes, but there are fees for converting currency. If he uses pesos he will have to add a bit to cover their losses due to those fees.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Suja (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:20pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
But I don't expect you to understand any of this.

you don't understand any of this.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:20pm

Re: Re:
Yes, not at all a good idea to photocopy. The pertinent portion from the Code of Federal Regulations reads:

� 411.1 Color illustrations authorized.

(a) Notwithstanding any provision of chapter 25 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, authority is hereby given for the printing, publishing or importation, or the making or importation of the necessary plates or items for such printing or publishing, of color illustrations of U.S. currency provided that:

(1) The illustration be of a size less than three-fourths or more than one and one-half, in linear dimension, of each part of any matter so illustrated;

(2) The illustration be one-sided; and

(3) All negatives, plates, positives, digitized storage medium, graphic files, magnetic medium, optical storage devices, and any other thing used in the making of the illustration that contain an image of the illustration or any part thereof shall be destroyed and/or deleted or erased after their final use in accordance with this section.

(b) [Reserved]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Suja (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:21pm

Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Meh nested quotes don't work very well on this site.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
fogbugzd (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:22pm

I doubt that anyone at the MPAA/RIAA will learn anything from this because they have invested way too much in not understanding.

It is possible that the value will come from educating people outside the RIAA/MPAA. I have already had a discussion about the project with someone who is strongly pro-IP. It did serve as a useful example of how a physical item and an copy of the physical item are different. The discussion started with him maintaining that the digital copy isn't really a copy because it isn't physical like the dollar bill. But that opened the door to me asking how a file of music was a physical object any more than the file containing the picture of the dollar bill is a physical object. I asked how having an .mp3 file extension makes it any more physical than a .jpg extension. He has finally come around (for the first time) to admitting there is a difference between a physical good and a digital good. One small victory at a time!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
keiichi969 (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:22pm

Re:
Actually that says its completely legal to do exactly this.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:23pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Oh, hey! It's bob! Hi, bob! We missed you! Where've you been, buddy?

All the other stories of piracy and counterfeiting have missed your words of enlightenment!

Hey, everybody! bob's here! Piracy all the way, WOO!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:23pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Unless of course you want to incentivate the local economy and you print your own money.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/06/communities-print-own-cur_n_183497.html

https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_currency
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Gwiz (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:24pm

We can email them scanned images of dollar bills instead of bulky paper...

Heh. A lot of modern scanners have recognition software that won't let you scan US currency. I know because I have tried to scan real money for use in graphic designs.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:24pm

Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Well, if copyright infringement, which is unlawful and a civil action, is the same as theft, which is illegal and a criminal action, then I guess counterfeiting is the same as assassinating a president.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
BentFranklin (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:25pm

Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
It's not counterfeiting, it's currency infringement.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
:Lobo Santo (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:26pm

Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Not THE black knight on the black horse!?

Wait.. no.

Bob, THE bob? Like, for reals or just some fool with the same name?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:26pm

Re: Re: Re:
http://i.imgur.com/uFJht.png

Send in the SS.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:29pm

Re:
So use non-property software. I have no problems with with Open Source scanners
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[citation needed or GTFO], 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:29pm

Re: Re: Re:
Doesn't that give us the authority to photocopy as long as

(1) it's not to scale?
(2) that it's one dimensional as on a screen and not able to see both sides of the physical bill?
(3) it's possible to erase or delete said copy?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:32pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
We missed you and your infinite wisdom on the definition of stealing debate. Glad to see you've graced us with your presence again.

It's only counterfeiting if it's actually PRINTED in the attempt to pass it off as legitimate currency, you moron.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:32pm

"So I'm a bit worried that Jake's little plan here is going to totally devalue US currency and drive the world into a massive recession. "

Oh, so is that the cause of our economic failure? Everyone has been downloading copied dollar bills. THIEVES!!! PIRATES!!!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[citation needed or GTFO], 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:34pm

Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Now if daryll were here, we would be able to bask in the glow of our copyright saviors~
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Rikuo (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:34pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Bob...you honestly think we're trying to counterfeit money here?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

"If people can make their own copies without paying their fair share of the development costs, no one will invest in the system. "
Bob, all those successful free-to-copy services would like to have a word with you. I watch Youtube and copy their videos for free (it has to be copied, otherwise how would it work?) and yet...its still online.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
ChurchHatesTucker (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:34pm

Re: Re: Re: Do they accept pesos?
I don't think the foreign distribution rights for this web campaign have been settled yet. He's going to have to wait.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:34pm

Isn't passing counterfit money a federal offense? Shouldn't passing illegal music be a federal offense?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:35pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yes, there are conditions that if met permit the making of a photocopy. Of course, the linked site makes no mention of this, and in all likelihood people who jump on his bandwagon will do so without knowing what the law requires to avoid a problem.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:35pm

Re:
Those attributes only matter if it is PRINTED.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
rubberpants, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:36pm

I don't have any money to copy, but I do plan on sending them a copy of a picture of a bunny I drew that I value at $340.00. What can I say, I'm a generous person.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Rikuo (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:36pm

Re:
I'm not a citizen of the US. Am I now going to be charged with counterfeiting simply for copying and saving the image of one side of a dollar bill? Emphasis on the ONE SIDE. I don't have the other.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Beta (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:36pm

Fun's fun, but I think this is specious and silly. Money isn't just information. It's an abstract entity that actually can be degraded by duplication. An obvious counterfeit is worthless (unlike a mediocre copy of a musical recording), and a convincing copy reduces the value of the original (again, unlike a perfect copy of a musical recording). Either way, "paying" these agencies with counterfeits doesn't prove our point, it gives the appearance of bolstering theirs.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Al Bert (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:37pm

Re: Re:
for i in {1..100}; do
cp dollar.jpg dollar$i.jpg;
done
zip IOU.zip dollar*.jpg

# then attach and mail
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:37pm

See, if Mike was really smart he would set up a paywall around the image. We all know that consumers are happy to pay for content, and that digital copies are the same as physical items. Then we can PAY Mike with copies of the same money we GOT from him. Talk about win/win!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Al Bert (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:39pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Aaand not knowing that it's not criminal counterfeiting makes it criminal?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Chris Rhodes (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:40pm

Re:
Since you read the article (right?), you must know that they are talking about emailing the RIAA a picture of a dollar bill.

I'm pretty sure that taking pictures of dollar bills is not illegal, unless you can prove otherwise. I won't hold my breath.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:40pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
So now a legitimate question for you...

So since you like paywalls, are you in favor of paywalls that accept legitimate copies of paper money (provided that they are authenticated by a DRM of course.)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
rubberpants, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:41pm

Re:
Shouldn't passing illegal gas be a federal offense?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Chosen Reject (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:41pm

Re:
You only got one? I keep refreshing the page as I'm saving up for a nice down payment.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Isakill, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:42pm

What about using a copy of the Euro, or other forms? I mean a lot of them are stronger than the dollar. Plus if we're "devaluing" currency we should devalue all of it. I have 1 million dollar Chinese "death notes" I can copy and send.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:43pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
...it's stealing from the little guys who are played like fools for supporting the artist.

Can't be a legacy system supporter without thinking your customers are fools. No wonder they're in such a mess.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Yartrebo (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:48pm

The copies are stated to be copies, and it should be plenty obvious from the fact that these 'dollar bills' are just bits.

AFAIK, it's perfectly legal to pass around an image of a bill so long as it isn't of super-high quality and I thought that the US government even made moderate-resolution images of US currency available specifically for use in artwork.

PS: Being a work of the US government, there are no copyrights attached to US currency and they are in the public domain, copyright-wise.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
hfbs (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:48pm

Uh-oh, I sense another semantics argument coming..

"It's counterfeiting!", "scans and digital copies of notes isn't counterfeiting!"
[ link to this | view in thread ]
weneedhelp (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:49pm

"So I'm a bit worried that Jake's little plan here is going to totally devalue US currency and drive the world into a massive recession."

Dont worry Mike, the Fed has that covered. ;)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:50pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Counterfeiting IS completely legal.

IF you're the Federal Reserve.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:55pm

Suggestion...
We can increase the efficiency if we all transfer the money to the broadcast address for their IP block. It will also have the added benefit of making them the sort of money they expect. :P
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:56pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
This is a very good example of the sort of arguments that turned me from a very pro-copyright and staunch RIAA supporter ten years ago, to a very vocal anti-copyright, anti-patent supporter.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
harbingerofdoom (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:56pm

you wouldnt download a dollar would you???

wait... i already did...
might as well hit F5 a few thousand times & then go shopping.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 2:57pm

Re:
But we would need to get bob's input for how to implement this since he's the EXPERT on paywalls.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
btr1701 (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:00pm

Re:
> Uh....I would think twice before jumping on
> this bandwagon (unless, of course, you like
> evening visits by the Secret Service).

> See: 31 C.F.R. PART 411

More like 18 USC 470-484
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
I'm starting a 'Bring Back Angry Dude' campaign.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:02pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
So having competing currency is an issue why?

Stossel Dollars
[ link to this | view in thread ]
btr1701 (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:03pm

Copies
Only problem with this is that it's impossible to make a digital copy of US currency, since there are aspects of US currency that can't be replicated in digital form.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:05pm

Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
"(it has to be copied, otherwise how would it work"
you expect him to understand this?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Zakida Paul (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:06pm

The Solution

Let's just pay them the money! They've made it very clear that they consider digital copies to be just as valuable as the original. That makes it a lot easier to pay them back in two ways: a. We can email them scanned images of dollar bills instead of bulky paper and b. We don't have to worry about the hassle of shipping huge quantities of cash.
------------------------------------------------------------
What a ridiculous suggestion and I hope this article is tongue in cheek because I cannot believe that a well respected tech blog would advocate such a thing. If it is tongue in cheek I will look foolish (something I can live with) and if it is not I will be attacked.

I am very much anti SOPA/PIPA/ACTA as I believe in a free Internet where we can give our opinions without reproach. However, I am also anti piracy as I believe we should pay for available content when it is available and we can afford it and if we cannot afford it we should go without. This article, if serious, is saying that we should simply take what we want and say "screw you" to the media industry. How exactly does that make you any better than the shady things that the media industry has gotten away with in the past?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:07pm

Re:
Once the fed starts making music...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
btr1701 (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:13pm

Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
> It's only counterfeiting if it's actually
> PRINTED in the attempt to pass it off as
> legitimate currency, you moron.

Not true. Counterfeit currency is contraband and as such mere possession is enough to violate the law. Just like drugs.

18 USC 471

Also, one need not actually print the image onto paper in order to violate the law:

18 USC 474

Whoever, with intent to defraud, makes, executes, acquires, scans, captures, records, receives, transmits, reproduces, sells, or has in such person's control, custody or possession, an analog, digital, or electronic image of any obligation or other security of the United States... is guilty of a Class B felony.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:18pm

Re:
The point is that it is a ridiculous response to a ridiculous position to demonstrate the absurdity of the position in the first place.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
btr1701 (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:20pm

Re:
> PS: Being a work of the US government, there
> are no copyrights attached to US currency and
> they are in the public domain, copyright-wise.

Yes, the prohibition on copying money has nothing to do with copyright. It's a separate crime in and of itself and has its own separate constitutional authority in Article I, Section 8.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
app103, 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:20pm

I will aend them a photo of my penny jar.
That should be good for at least $100, a lot more if I keep making copies of it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
TheLoot (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:21pm

Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
"with intent to defraud"

You just broke your point in the same post.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:24pm

Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Ok the key words there are "with intent to defraud" which the prosecution would have to prove in order to obtain a conviction.

So unless they were printed you they would have to prove that you INTENDED to print them and pass them off as legitimate currency. Yeah. Web images qualify for that.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Al Bert (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:25pm

carrot, stick, cliff
I somehow imagine someone at the MPAA trying to figure out how to convert this newfound stream of front-face dollar bill images into real cash. Too bad this bait can't be laid in a proper trap.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
TheLoot (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:27pm

Re:
Actually, "intent to defraud" must be proven, which hopefully would not be possible when dealing with pixels or one-sided pictures printed out on a blank sheet of paper.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
TheLoot (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:29pm

Re: carrot, stick, cliff
If it ended with them being thrown in jail for trying to pass off the fake money as real, I'm all for this!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
hfbs (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 3:40pm

Re: Copies
And it's exactly the same as a downloading a film - it's similar to, but not exactly like, watching a store-bought DVD. Mainly the actual physical part of it, which incidentally is the same difference here. They're not looking to replicate money exactly and a pirated film is not an exact replica of a Hollywood-endorsed one.

Seems a perfect solution to me.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Gracey (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:06pm

Re:
I have a new epson scanner - not an all in one, but a fairly expensive model.

It warns you that you can't scan money, but then it will do it anyways.

I've scanned a bunch of our Cdn money for a photoshoot.

Still have the scans. I also scanned an old American dollar from the 1930s...maybe it doesn't recognize it as real money.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:14pm

Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Operative sentence "with intent to defraud", making a copy of currency for any other purpose thus is perfectly legal also to be included there you must make a copy that is more or less the same size of it and have both sides.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
ethorad (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:14pm

Re:
Just remember to register it with the copyright office.

Then sue them for placing copies of your picture on their email server, on the local machine of whoever received the email, on their email backup servers ...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
btr1701 (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
> "with intent to defraud"

> You just broke your point in the same post.

No, I didn't. The claim was that it's not counterfeiting if "it's actually PRINTED in the attempt to pass it off as legitimate currency".

My response addressed that erroneous claim and nothing more.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
gorehound (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:21pm

I wonder if I could somehow "print" on some toilet paper ?
It really would be great if I only could.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
BeeAitch (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:40pm

Re:
Take a look here.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Josh (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Well, that "counterfeit" dollar up there is now stored safely in your cache, along with everyone else's. Which means you have a copy, just sitting there on your hard drive, looking incriminating. So congratulations, you're now a felon!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Your points are well made. It is too bad, however, that there still remain individuals here who fail to grasp the potential consequences of following the lead of the individual whose site is linked in the article. For their sake I hope they decline the invitation to participate.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Pirate Apologist, 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:47pm

Re:
"I am also anti piracy as I believe we should pay for available content when it is available and we can afford it and if we cannot afford it we should go without."
silly, but serious question...
Fan F really like Band B... Fan F would really like to buy song S from band B, but can't because he lacks money or lives in the wrong area of the world...
Fan F is already suffering, he either has no money or has to speak French or something...
there are already physical things/limited resources he cant have thanks to his predicament that may not be his fault...
either way, hasn't he already suffered enough? why cant he just download a copy?
how exactly would Fan F downloading Song S hurt band B in any way?
band B still has all their songs (that they haven't signed away the rights to), they haven't lost a sale, as a sale would be impossible. how are they hurt?

in the absence of harm, we should just "go without" to create harm? is there some moral imperative that harm must be created?
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Greevar (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:50pm

Re: Re: Re:
That can't be the right way to concatenate.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:53pm

More Mike word games.

First off, a copy of money (if you make it the right size) will get you legal troubles. It is essentially as valuable as the real thing. Sending it to the record labels would effectively be counterfeiting. I really don't recommend it.

Further, let's be clear here. Some things copy and retain value, and some things don't.

You are so busy trying to prove yourself clever Mike, instead you just come off as a nasty dickhead. Sorry, it's my opinion.
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Manfred Manfriend, 14 Mar 2012 @ 4:55pm

Re: Re:
Well if you're that worried about it, you can just use the ASCII dollars...it's the same thing--right?

Here's one to get you started:

______________________________________________________________________
|.============[_F_E_D_E_R_A_L___R_E_S_E_R_V_E___N_O_T_E_]=============.|
||%&%&%&%_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ %&%&%&%&||
||%&.-.&/||_||_ | ||\||||_| \ (_ ||\||_(_ /\|_ |\|V||_|)|/ |\ %&.-.&&||
||&// |\ || ||_ \_/| ||||_|_/ ,_)|||||_,_) \/| ||| ||_|\|\_|| &// |\%||
||| | | |% ,-----,-'____'-,-----, %| | | |||
||| | | |&% """""""""" [ .-;"`___ `";-. ] &%| | | |||
||&\===// `).'' .'`_.- `. '.'.(` A 76355942 J \\===/&||
||&%'-'%/1 // .' /` \ \\ \%'-'%||
||%&%&%/` d8888b // / \ _ _;, \\ .-"""-. 1 `&%&%%||
||&%&%& 8P |) Yb ;; ( > a a| \ ;; //A`Y A\\ &%&%&||
||&%&%| 8b |) d8 || ( ,\ \ | ) || ||.-'-.|| |%&%&||
||%&%&| Y8888P || '--'/` -- /-' || \\_/~\_// |&%&%||
||%&%&| || |\`-.__/ || '-...-' |&%&%||
||%%%%| || /` |._ .|-. || |%&%&||
||%&%&| A 76355942 J /;\ _.' \ } \ '-. /;\ |%&%&||
||&%.-; (, '. \ } `\ \' ,) ,.,.,.,., ;-.%&||
||%( | ) 1 """"""" _( \ ;...---------.;.; / )_ ```""""""" 1 ( | )%||
||&%'-'==================\`------------------`/=================='-'%&||
||%&JGS&%&%&%&%%&%&&&%&%%&)O N E D O L L A R(%&%&%&%&%&%&%%&%&&&%&%%&||
'""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""`
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 5:16pm

Re:
Sorry, it's my opinion.

Nah, it's a well-established fact.
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monkyyy, 14 Mar 2012 @ 5:32pm

Re: Re: Re:
ur missing some white space
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Yartrebo (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 5:44pm

Re: Re:
I know, and nothing that I posted contradicts that.

The laws against counterfeiting also quite a bit looser than copyright. For example, it's legal to make play money that use the image of a dollar bill, so long as it meets certain restrictions on size and quality, but it's illegal to make play Monopoly (R) money.
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Benjo (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 5:52pm

Re: Re:
"authority is hereby given for the printing, publishing or importation..."

How could emailing a picture of a dollar be counterfeiting? What kind of idiot thinks he can spend an image of a dollar on his screen? It's not printed on paper, so clearly the laws pertaining to importation/printing/publishing do not apply, moron. Keep making shit up, you nasty dickhead.
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Al Bert (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 5:59pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
/me shrugs
works in bash
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Machin Shin (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 6:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Really this whole argument brings up another very stupid point. Who the hell cares if you have a scan of a dollar? What you going to do try to pass your monitor tot he lady at the check out and hope she is too dumb to know it is not a dollar bill?
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 6:12pm

Re:
I marked your comment as funny because you think the Euro is stonger than the dollar! Greece is bankrupt, Italy and Spain are not far behind and much stinkier pieces of shit. Euro will collapse once the can is kicked to the wall.

On another note to all the people saying that having digital images of Federal Reserve Notes is illegal. Search google images for "dollar bills." Should all of these sites be shut down because they have digital images of FRN's on their site, which promote [insert scare tactic]?
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Al Bert (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 6:17pm

Bitches love DRM
If everyone's worried about the legality of a hi-res single-face scan of the dollar bill, just open MSPAINT and scribble "DRM 4 EVA" on the image. Then send that. I'm sure they'll appreciate someone who understands them.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Mar 2012 @ 6:31pm

Re: Re:
Just because you don't think the hum of a printing press is music does not mean that it isn't.

Personally it makes me all warm inside and puts me to sleep knowing that I can have full faith in others to look out for my best interest.
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Ted E. bear, 14 Mar 2012 @ 6:48pm

stolen smells
Here is a great little story. It's easy and you don't have to read. Just listen to someone tells you the story. It fits very well so just sit back and steal some sounds.

http://www.storymuseum.org.uk/1001stories/detail/181/the-smell-of-bread.html
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Rekrul, 14 Mar 2012 @ 6:54pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
ur missing some white space

That's because web-based text editors rarely allow you to have more than a single space between characters. They normally delete any extra spaces. Also, it won't look right unless you're viewing it with a fixed-width font.
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James Foster (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 7:06pm

Although I completely agree with the idea behind this (infringement is not theft), this is not a very transferable comparison.

Money obtains its value by the way in which it is accepted by society i.e. it can be exchanged for goods and services, and has value. There is no value in a copy (especially a digital copy), as it cannot enjoy the same use as the original.

There is, however, some value in a digital copy of a song or movie. I'm not specifically talking about dollar value, but in the use of the original vs the use of the copy. People are able to enjoy the same content and use as the original.

Not a very good comparison in my opinion, and I think this weakens the argument against the ridiculous claims which are made by the MPAA & RIAA.
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Douglas Whitfield, 14 Mar 2012 @ 7:12pm

why pirate?
With sites like Jamendo.com, freemusicarchive.org, ccmixter, bandcamp.com, musicmanumit.com, cchits.net, etc, and bands like Shearer, Josh Woodward, Severed Fifth, 20lb Sound, Lorenzo's Music, Emcee Lynx, David Rovics, 8in8, Nine Inch Nails, etc...

WHY ON EARTH DOES ANYONE PIRATE MUSIC??

It makes absolutely no sense to me.
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oconnellc (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 7:15pm

Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Wow, a link to something that explained where the original commenter was wrong was just too much to ask, huh?
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Sam (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 7:31pm

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
What happens when the government mints more cash? They must be destroying value too!

You can't destroy the value of cash, you just divide it. The value exists in the thing for which the cash is merely a placeholder.
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That One Guy (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 7:36pm

Re: carrot, stick, cliff
I can actually see that happening, some idiot over there absolutely freaking out by the apparent deluge of money they are receiving, and then trying to actually get it deposited in a bank somewhere.
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That One Guy (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 7:38pm

Re: Re: Re:
>What kind of idiot thinks he can spend an image of a dollar on his screen?

Apparently these kind of idiots.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 8:29pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Your points are well made. It is too bad, however, that there still remain individuals here who fail to grasp the potential consequences of following the lead of the individual whose site is linked in the article. For their sake I hope they decline the invitation to participate.

You honestly think the Secret Service is going to go after people for emailing a jpg of one side of a dollar?

Really?

Stranger things have happened, but if the Secret Service wants to make incredible fools of themselves... I guess let's see them try.
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Anon, 14 Mar 2012 @ 9:16pm

Re:
I can make a program that will do this, but a few million times will run about 15gb.
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anon, 14 Mar 2012 @ 9:19pm

Re:
What about a digital copy? eh? eh?
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Anon, 14 Mar 2012 @ 10:45pm

So.. here is a file containing 900 copies of $100 dollar bills. < 25MB
http://www.axifile.com/en/32EEAD9997

here are some emails..
ContatUs@mpaa.org
antipiracy@mpaa.org
antipiracy@riaa.com
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Robert Shaver, 14 Mar 2012 @ 11:07pm

That's why counterfeiting is illegal.
Look, I agree with you on copying in general but this analogy isn't correct. If you can scan currency AND you print it out AND you can pay for stuff with that scanned currency:

A. That will devalue the currency due to inflation of the money supply. (That's also why it's bad when the government does it legally. Same result: inflation.)

B. Printing copies of money is illegal in all countries in the world because ... see A above.

This analogy only works if you scan, print and use the scanned currency. If you put a CD in a scanner and scan the art and put that scanned picture of the CD on the internet for people to download, they can't play the songs. Nobody's suggesting they care of you scan the CD art work ... although I'm sure they'd complain about it.

So, in fact this is a good analogy for the copyright maximalists. They would say that copying copyrighted infinite goods and putting them on the internet devalues them in the same way as counterfeiting money, if unchecked, will devalue that money. And that's why, they'd say, that the prohibition of counterfeiting is strongly enforced and that's exactly why the prohibition of copying copyrighted goods should be strongly enforced too.

In fact the marginal cost of printing another currency bill is very low also, compared to its value in circulation. But we all know that printing a huge supply of paper money will not add value to the economy.

To summarize, I think that copyright as it is currently practiced is broken and I also think scanning and printing currency as a analogy to devaluing copyrighted infinite goods is an argument FOR strong copyright enforcement just like counterfeiting laws.

Or did I miss something?
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Keroberos (profile), 14 Mar 2012 @ 11:38pm

Re: Re:
No all our money is fake here.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 1:11am

There is a better metaphor, as you know very well Mike
Send the MPAA and RIAA a copy of the digital information on your credit card
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muljner, 15 Mar 2012 @ 1:37am

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Ever heard of open source?

Try investing something that has true equity,: time, research, effort. Not a fictional currency that is backed by nothing and acrues debt from the moment you "earn it". Which is taxed, then if you use it to survive its taxed, then you pay tax on property.

Debt=slavery
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 1:45am

Re: Re: Re:
Solution: scan coins
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 2:43am

Pick one of the government own photographs and send it to the entertainment industry then is not counterfeiting is it?
http://www.moneyfactory.gov/uscurrency/smalldenominations.html

I am sending the entertainment industry a digital copy of a hundred dollars.

http://www.moneyfactory.gov/images/252_New100front2.jpg

http://www.secretservice.gov/ money_illustrations.shtml

And if the secret service didn't go after Wikipedia I doubt they will come after anyone else using it for fun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_one_dollar_bill,_obverse.jpg
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techflaws.org (profile), 15 Mar 2012 @ 3:38am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Well, they are just jealous when they see the FBI thwarting their own terrorism plots time and again.
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techflaws.org (profile), 15 Mar 2012 @ 3:50am

Re:
You are so busy trying to prove yourself clever Mike

Says the guy to busy proving Mike wrong he must try to ignore the fact the whole thing is about DIGITAL copies. Thus you just come off as a nasty dickhead. Sorry, it's my opinion.
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Chargone (profile), 15 Mar 2012 @ 4:20am

Re:
well, given that seems to be the main GOAL of the banks and such, given their actions in recent times, probably not.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 4:21am

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
So what you are saying that people would not give money to fund projects that would be realised for free?

http://www.kickstarter.com/pages/creativecommons

Then clearly that page can't exist... but it does... funny that.
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Ninja (profile), 15 Mar 2012 @ 4:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
OMG, he just invented compressed money then? Fit all the world money in your thumb drive easily! We can all be trillionaires!
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 6:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
I rather doubt the Secret Service will be knocking down doors, but as a general rule I believe it is unwise to tempt fate in view of a federal law that is clear on its face. This is why I mentioned the section from the Code of Federal Regulations that lays out acceptable ground rules relating to photocopying of paper currency.
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CJ, 15 Mar 2012 @ 7:59am

Re: Oh my!
Caution: Some printers will freeze up if you try to scan/print money. Then you have to call tech support, and they have to file a report with the Secret Service.

Copying money is considered counterfeiting... which is a felony in the US.

Source: Experience.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 8:09am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
$_ =~ s/ / /g;
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 8:19am

Re: Re:
Email wouldn't be a secure transfer of the funds. I suggest just attempting to send the data in an encrypted stream servers.
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Anonymsous brave, 15 Mar 2012 @ 8:22am

Re: Re: Oh my!
Really so serious? I thought tehy just refuse to print it. It would be a good prank to add the pattern to some random image to be printed.
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Bergman (profile), 15 Mar 2012 @ 8:27am

Re: Re: Oh my!
Copying is counterfeiting, yes. But making a digital image of money is not, so long as you don't try to print it out.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 8:35am

Re:
"The copies are stated to be copies, and it should be plenty obvious from the fact that these 'dollar bills' are just bits."

And digital copies of motion pictures are also bits that are obviously different from the series of original images captured on celluloid.

BTW the law (previously quoted) says nothing about having to be used for artwork only that there can't be an "intent to defraud".
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 8:48am

Re:
If we are not talking about "dollar" values then the argument can be made that the scanned image included in this article also has value as its VALUE has contributed to VALUE of the content of the original article and the evidence is the fact that over 120+ comments have been added to the article so far.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 9:07am

Re: Re: Re: Oh my!
Just like, I guess, making a printing plate is not a problem so long as you do not try and print anything with it.

Unfortunately for you, the law is most definitely not on your side, whether it be a printing plate or a digital file.
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AzureSky (profile), 15 Mar 2012 @ 9:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh my!
well, funny thing is, some businesses I have worked for scan all cash that passes thru their hands, in 1 case it helped track down somebody who was making VERY good counterfeits(passed the pen and water mark tests)

if having images of money is illegal...then our own govt is in trouble....big trouble....
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 11:11am

Well you know the RIAA&MPAA need to stfu. Countless companies are losing billions as well due to people loaning stuff out to their neighbors friends and so on and we don't hear them crying.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 11:21am

Re: There is a better metaphor, as you know very well Mike
I can't. The anti-circumvention of the DMCA prevents me from circumventing the DRM technology on my card in order to access the digital data.
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Yoshord, 15 Mar 2012 @ 11:57am

Re: Re: Oh my!
I was under the impression that as long as the printed money was single-sided and was either more than double or less than half the size of real money then making images of USD was acceptible.
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Hephaestus (profile), 15 Mar 2012 @ 12:38pm

Re: Do they accept pesos?
I wonder if they will accept this picture of a spider as payment.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 12:44pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh my!
[Citation Needed}

Quote the law that states an image is illegal.

Thanks.
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Howard, 15 Mar 2012 @ 12:50pm

Theft of IP is a serious issue and should not be trivialized with stunts like this. There needs to be more a conversation between the RIAA/MPAA and the public on the impact that stolen content is having on the industry. It is substantial, that is for sure. Then there should be a public policy discussion between the tech industry, content producers and the public as we come up with a way to address this issue. Protect IP and we preserve the integrity and quality of the content that we have all come to love.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 1:09pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
1) Must prove intent.
2) Image not to scale.
3) Single sided image.

Makes for a tough case.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 1:28pm

Re:
"Theft of IP is a serious issue"

Empirical Evidence?

"There needs to be more a conversation between the RIAA/MPAA and the public on the impact that stolen content is having on the industry."

First let me FTFY...

There needs to be more a conversation BETWEEN the RIAA/MPAA and the public on the impact that shared content MAY be having on the industry.

"Then there should be a public policy discussion between the tech industry, content producers and the public as we come up with a way to address this issue."

"Conversation" and "discussion" require two way communication and they aren't interested in listening, only dictating.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 2:01pm

Re: Re: Oh my!
Copying money is considered counterfeiting... which is a felony in the US.

Only if it is the same size as real money.
An image of a dollar bill half the size or ten times the size of real money is obviously not intended to deceive anyone that it is real cash.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Mar 2012 @ 5:04pm

Response to: Anonymous Coward on Mar 14th, 2012 @ 2:34pm
the govt doesn't print, circulate, control, etc music. so, no.
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Al Bert (profile), 15 Mar 2012 @ 5:49pm

in the format the consumer wants
That's good! Now i can finally pay them back for all the cd's i dubbed to cassette in the 90's!
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Al Bert (profile), 15 Mar 2012 @ 5:56pm

Re:
Don't give them any ideas. Watch, soon you'll have to buy a second license for "your" lawnmower in order to be able mow both the front and back yard. Forget letting the neighbor borrow it; that's illegal
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MPAA, 15 Mar 2012 @ 7:06pm

contactus@mpaa.org
contactus@mpaa.org
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Mar 2012 @ 3:53pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
> You honestly think the Secret Service is going to go after people
> for emailing a jpg of one side of a dollar?

I can speak with some authority that they won't. There are much bigger fish to fry.
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goron, 27 Mar 2012 @ 8:23am

It is no longer about appreciation for the film and music. It is about having more money than they know what to do with. Excessively rich individuals who have no limit when it comes to their insatiable greed are the scum of society!

When was the last time you have heard about rich people pirating music and movies? I can't remember, can you? What sets them apart from the people who do pirate music and movies?
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Michael, 6 Jun 2012 @ 6:58pm

oh dear
Want to do any creative work?
Copyright infringement.
Want to share?
Copyright infringement.

Very soon our only option is to ignore copyright.
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Michael, 6 Jun 2012 @ 6:58pm

oh dear
Want to do any creative work?
Copyright infringement.
Want to share?
Copyright infringement.

Very soon our only option is to ignore copyright.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
John, 12 Jul 2012 @ 11:13am

Re: Ugh. There's a reason that Counterfeiting is illegal
Why then is the Federal Reserve allowed to counterfeit billions and even trillions of dollars? If counterfeiting were illegal, then we wouldn't have a Federal Reserve, but of course I don't except you would be capable of understanding any of this.
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