Police Ticket Guy Who Helped Direct Traffic After Traffic Light Failure; Then Leave Without Handling Traffic
from the no-good-deed dept
Sometimes it seems that law enforcement is a lot more interested in enforcing the letter of the law than the spirit of the law. Via Radley Balko, we learn that police in Pasadena California showed up at the intersection of Fair Oaks and Huntington Avenues to issue a ticket to Alan Ehrlich. Ehrlich's crime? Directing traffic.Apparently the traffic light went out, leading to backups of more than a mile. It was taking cars more than 30 minutes to get through. Ehrlich decided to help out -- grabbing an orange shirt and some safety flags that he had, and helped direct traffic, apparently clearing up much of the backup in about 10 minutes. It was about that time that the police showed up and issued him a citation. And... at no point did the police decide that maybe they should be directing traffic.
Amazingly, the police chief is defending all of this by saying that the force does "not have the man power" to staff someone there to direct traffic -- but they apparently have the staff to issue a citation to the guy who volunteered to help out.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Yep!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Yep!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Fire the police chief
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
And if that doesn't happen
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
OF COURSE they ticketed him
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: OF COURSE they ticketed him
But again, that's all semantics. What bothers me here is that they ticketed a guy for (I'm assuming) obstruction or interfering with traffic, and then did nothing to actually help the situation.
I wish someone had gotten it on film.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: OF COURSE they ticketed him
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: OF COURSE they ticketed him
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: OF COURSE they ticketed him
{{Citation Needed}}
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: OF COURSE they ticketed him
American citizens do not carry the authority or enjoy the legal protections held by police officers, and are held to the principle of strict liability before the courts of civil- and criminal law including, but not limited to, any infringement of another's rights. Nonetheless many citizens' arrests are popular news stories.
Though North Carolina General Statutes have no provision for citizens' arrests, detention by private persons is permitted and applies to both private citizens and police officers outside their jurisdiction. Detention is permitted where probable cause exists that one has committed a felony, breach of peace, physical injury to another person, or theft or destruction of property. Detention is different from an arrest in that in a detention the detainee may not be transported without consent.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: OF COURSE they ticketed him
But since he obviously didn't read about it, I'll put him as embodiment of my imaginary list of people who should have gone and read it.
So thank you for helping him read. :)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: OF COURSE they ticketed him
> guy for (I'm assuming) obstruction or interfering
> with traffic
That's the problem with the news these days. They only superficially report on each story. Almost every time, I'm left with key question that they haven't bothered to answer. In this story, they report that he was cited but they leave the key question of what he was cited *with* unanswered.
I can't believe it's against the law in California for non-law enforcement to direct traffic, so what was he charged with? They'll have a hard time proving obstruction or interference with traffic because the traffic was objectively flowing better after his actions than before them.
I just wish the media would do it's job and actually report more than just the surface facts in each story.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: OF COURSE they ticketed him
World's BEST Traffic Director having fun (practicing) directing traffic and dancing to Cap D Coming by (Uncle Luke).
https://youtu.be/dEnTEvVsNJE
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: OF COURSE they ticketed him
MUST SEE!!!!!
Man Practicing Directing Traffic & Dancing to (Cap D. Coming By Uncle Luke).
https://youtu.be/dEnTEvVsNJE
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
This is probably the result of some liability law somewhere that if the police "allow" this dude to direct traffic and he gets hit the city is liable.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
But having worked with a lot of children I can say they seem to have an innate sense of fairness. I think part of it is they don't have a strong super-ego to use logic traps to rationalize how unfair something is. Like one of the standard response we see on here: "Yeah its unfair but its against the law" or "the law is the law" kind of thing, kids just go, well thats bullshit.
Freak I won't argue that they are not self-interested, they are most of the world as far as they are concerned, but if they get no benefit or punishment from the outcome they are generally fair judges.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Bollocks. I say they have an all-consuming demand for fairness, especially whey they believe they have been treated unfairly.
...BUT their concepts of fairness are terribly immature, rudimentary, simple, biased in their favor, and dwell only on the short-term present time frame.
Try picking one child up from school and buying her ice cream. Then pick up the second child, and go out for dinner. Now, only buy the second child ice cream after dinner. The first child think it's UNfair that she gets no ice cream. Even though they both did.
I also played soccer with some 6 year olds. Some kept using their hands to stop the ball as an unintended reflex, others had the ball hit their arms by mistake. No matter. Both sets of kids would argue to their deaths that the ball did not hit their hands. Their "sense of fairness" told them that, since they didn't touch the ball deliberately, it was only fair that it doesn't count.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
> little bastards
No, it's because they're all I'd until they're taught differently.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
For example: Doctors order useless tests because of "liability"; At the same time, doctors are paid for said tests even though their time commitment is often no more than the time it takes to put a check mark on a box, and (maybe) to read the results afterward.
For example: Cities often do not allow unlicensed food service (such as a fireman's pancake fundraiser). Cities are paid fees for such licences.
I don't know where the money is going here. Maybe the Police don't want jobs reduced because they are not really needed? But I doubt there is any real liability reason here.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
Of course, it *could* have been unintentional. Like just stupidly applying a law for one situation (people just stepping out into the street and directing traffic for no good reason) to another (people stepping out to solve a serious problem).
Whatever the justification, I don't think it is about liability.
The City doesn't incur additional liability when someone breaks or bends a law, and the police don't ticket. They can just tell the guy to quit, and warn him. People break or bend the law all the time and get warnings. The police can always issue a ticket *after* a bad outcome to protect against liability.
A review of what I wrote doesn't yield (at least to me) anything that would warrant an accusation of "Charlie Sheen" thinking. Maybe light on details, but it wasn't deranged.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
:)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Then why didn't one of their (who are covered by insurance) own remain on-site to direct traffic, even for a little while?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
*That said*
If these backups are a regular occurance, it would seem that deputizing and training volunteers would be a better idea than ticketing someone who helps out. Reach out, slap the guy on the back, give him safety training, and you have just reached out to the community in a time of crisis. Instead, the Chief has just gone a long way to further alienate people from the organization which is supposed to protect them.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
I missed that in the article. Where did it say he was untrained? Was there another article that covered that?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
i believe he means he didn't pay the appropriate fees to whoever it is that certifies crossing guards
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Deputizing volunteers? In L.A. county, the only deputies are of the sherrif's department, which is actually the police force in many communities that can't afford their own police force. So are you suggesting we send people through police academy simply to direct traffic at intersections where the traffic light has stopped working?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Mr. Obvious.
Obviously you did not read said article well, because, obviously, the article states "Ehrlich said the Sept. 8 incident wasn’t the first and that the light goes out regularly."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Mr. Obvious.
> that the light goes out regularly."
Sounds like the solution isn't to train deputies or volunteers but rather to spend the money to fix the frakkin light.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Mr. Obvious.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
"Ehrlich said the Sept. 8 incident wasn’t the first and that the light goes out regularly."
And no you don't have to put them thru Police Academy. Traffic direction is mostly common sense when dealing with a basic 4 way intersection. Also, as most of us have to pass a basic driver's safety test just to get a driver's license, knowledge of basic rules, as well as common sense, would give most citizens enough background to hold a simple Training exercise on 2 or 3 weekends for anyone who wished to volunteer. Easy solution, cheap overall and bad situations become better.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Which brings me to the point, why is that cities don't have portable backups street traffic lights?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I had never heard of or seen such a thing before, but a quick Google search and...
http://portabletrafficsignalstss.com/
https://www.oksolar.com/lion/Item/1608450/portable-tr affic-signals
Now I absolutely agree! Why don't we have a few of these for when traffic signals fail?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
As far as I can see the only thing stopping something like that from happening is people scoffing at the idea.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Drop by a church and you could probably almost instantly get the crowd to chip in to cover it.
The guy could have possibly smiled and gladly taken the ticket. Frame it. Use it to direct a drive to overturn the law or shake up city hall.
Maybe it's tax deductible.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Connect with Citizens: Reason to Vote
Connect with Citizens: Reason to Vote.
When people step up, government should reach out. Not to slap them down, but to ask them to help. If Joe Public can see something needs to be done and does it, don't punish him. If it is dangerous for him to do it and you are afraid of being held liable, explain it to him so he doesn't feel pissed on.
People always get mad when you don't understand something - but not nearly as mad as when you ask them to help you try to understand something.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
The Dirty Little Secret.
They need more money to grow their fiefdoms so they WANT traffic in chaos because it supports their claims for more officers/bureaucrats and larger budgets. The last thing they want is for some bystander to solve the problem without OVERTIME.
The proof is in the pudding, when schools want more money, they cut teachers, not administrators because by cutting teachers they can more directly affect the children/parents. No one would notice if they cut 2 of 3 Vice Principles.
At the post office, they cut the delivery workers, not the Post Masters because we notice when the mail takes longer to deliver. Who here has ever even seen a post master.
The list goes on.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
If the police came by and saw this guy, gave him a thumbs up, and a few minutes later he directs a schoolbus full of children into the path of a fuel tanker truck that explodes and kills all of them, what is the liability for the police officers, their department, and the city?
billions.
See, in practical terms, it is cool that this guy is willing to help out and make things good. But if he is even semi-officially sanctioned or even officially tolerated, and fucks it up, then it's the city that ends up on the hook.
I am also sure that, if the police had let him go and a bunch of people got hurt, there would be a Techdirt article about how the lazy police left an untrained person to direct traffic, proving that the police are incompetent.
Sorry, but the real world says "liablity" and "illegal". That's all there is to it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
And how does leaving without doing anything to fix the traffic mess do anything to reduce their liability?
Sorry, no, this isn't about liability, the city's doing many things that are increasing their potential liability here, while stopping someone from trying to clean up the mess.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Basic traffic law: If the light is out, it is considered a 4 way stop. If drivers are unable to follow the law, there is no liablity to the city.
I truly hope you don't have a drivers license.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
Depends upon the state. In mine, that isn't the case (though it ought to be.)
Also, when last I checked, the liability for accidents as in your example is on the drivers, not the person* directing traffic. It's extremely unlikely that a tanker is going to ram a school bus just because some guy was waving him on, anyway.
(*I think there might have been an exception for cops. If so there's actually *less* liability for a civilian to direct traffic.)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
I know thats how I would process it...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
2- Good natured volunteer(s) try to fix problem;
3- Volunteer(s) go to jail?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
If the cops ticket this guy and essentially relieve him of duty, THEN the aforementioned disaster happens, they are liable. They knew of the problem, removed a solution, then ignored the problem.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
This sort of thinking leads to all sorts of errors of proportionality and assessment of actual risk.
Ridiculous, magical thinking.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
This sort of thinking leads to all sorts of errors of proportionality and assessment of actual risk.
Ridiculous, magical thinking.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Ticketing the guy, then leaving the situation in a mess is just moronic.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
he pitched in and solved temporarily a problem.
how is this different than applying first aid even if you are not a doctor until a doctor arrives?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
So we have no liability (the driver blew up) a buss load of dead kids, and the city is free and clear...Where is the win in this?
Who knows if he would have caused someone to blow up, perhaps he saved someone from doing something stupid. So your telling me your not going to stop and render aid to someone who was in a car crash because you might get sued because your not a doctor?... Pussy! Don't we have good Samaritan laws to prevent liability when people are trying to help anyway?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Don't give him the thumbs up or any indication of approval. Don't even talk to him. No liability incurred.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Frankly, that liability exposure claim is pretty lame, too. You really need to start with trillions before you even raise eyebrows these days. But don't stop there. Try this on for size...
decillions.
Kinda has a nice ring to it, huh?
Seriously, FUD like this is what feeds the downward spiral robbing us of personal responsibility, common sense, and ultimately, liberty. Take a deep breath and realize that things usually work out a lot better, especially when citizens pitch in to help and police officers offer guidance rather than always defaulting to punishment.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
And Piranhas!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
You are a disgusting animal; you used "the children" to incite an emotional response so you could cloud the actual issue at hand.
You're the kind of sick individual who spends all day belabouring the evils of "snuff porn" because it secretly turns them on to think about it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Yep, some of us no longer give a crap about "liability" because the concept has been corrupted by companies and lawyers in an effort to cover up the truth in whatever situation that word is being applied to. The real words we're looking for is "responsibility" and "fault."
"Liability" is the reason hair-dryers have warnings like "Do not use while showering." or packs of airplane peanuts say: "Warning, may contain nuts." and there's instructions on individual cheese slices to "Open here." So pardon me for not giving a crap about your corrupted concept of liability.
In this case, the city is responsible for multiple reasons. For not fixing a traffic light that repeatedly fails. For not budgeting enough to the police to have someone available for traffic duty. Ultimately it is the responsibility of the citizens, either for not paying enough in taxes to support the services they want, or allowing the taxes they pay to be wasted on other things, or for electing representatives who have voted for those things. But that's a difficult truth to accept, so we end up with a guy trying to help out get smacked because the city would be "liable" for exactly what they really are responsible for.
And then of course, we have the whole other idea of trying to apply liability to those who are in no way responsible. But that's for another story.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
What most people try to say here is that the police should thank the guy and give him a warning not to do this again due to liability reasons.
Duh!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
They still didn't need to ticket him
A simple "excuse me sir, but while we appreciate you are trying to help, due to safety concerns we really must ask you to stop. Thank you for your help though and know your intentions were appreciated. have a good day, citizen."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: They still didn't need to ticket him
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: They still didn't need to ticket him
What is the difference between cops and criminals?
The uniform.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: They still didn't need to ticket him
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: They still didn't need to ticket him
What is the difference between a fool and a comedian?
One of them does stand up.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: They still didn't need to ticket him
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Weird
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Weird
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
the force does "not have the man power"
Man observes thieves breaking into his shed and phones police:
"I'm sorry sir - there is nobody available"
A few minutes later he tries again
"Some men are breaking into my shed so I got my shotgun and shot one of them"
10 minutes later:
6 police cars with flashing lights career up the drive a helicopter appears overhead.
A policeman runs up the drive "where is the gun and the body?"
"There isn't a gun "
"I thought you said you'd shot someone?"
"I thought you said no one was available"
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: the force does "not have the man power"
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
well.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: well.
Now there's an understatement. It goes well beyond just being a bad decision.
Probably just a cash-strapped PD seizing an opportunity to cite someone for something they might call Unauthorized Directing of Traffic. Or some other bullshit name. Just so they could cash in. Or something.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: well.
It's always down to dollars...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
just a ticket?
just goes to show that the cops are no longer interested in helping people anymore.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: just a ticket?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Obvious
Plus, if you leave it alone, every so often a citizen like this will come along and try to help, and then you can nail him with a fine. Win-win for the state!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Obvious
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
The man got a citation?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
http://www.omjcsignal.com/firstresponder.php
If the city don't feel like it is important people could just build a emergency street signal light with leds and arduino's and use the internet to track the lights that breakdown.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
F pasadena city
So yes, the Chief and police are correct in the LETTER of the LAW, but the SPIRIT of the law says, they should have thanked him and sent him on his way.
" no good deed goes un-punished "
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: F pasadena city
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Slight Correction
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Slight Correction
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Or something Confucian like that...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
impersonating an officer
Would that be okay, or would everyone say the cops arrested the citizen due to liability concerns.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
One day the city decided to enforce the two hour parking limit (long story, you can blame the mayor though). It made EVERYONE complain to the city and now no one can ever find a parking spot. At first, to avoid a ticket, local employees would move their car from one parking spot to an adjacent spot every so often. Eventually, they even got ticketed doing that. It's turned into a fiasco. Everyone has been asking for parking exemptions for people who work in the area and the city has been saying that they're working on it. It's been a few months now, nothing has been done. No one hardly ever has any place to park and there is this island full of empty parking spots that no one wants to park in to avoid a ticket.
The area that I speak of is Hawthorne California on Hawthorne Boulevard. It's so sad watching the ticket person giving someone a ticket for being a car parked in a lot full of empty spots.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Mending the Flow of Traffic?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Mending the Flow....
And a speed *limit* is the maximum you can go. It is perfectly legal to drive under the speed limit within reason. I would expect anything above 20 mph to be absolutely acceptable in a 35 mph zone, legally speaking.
This comes from perhaps the only guy you will ever meet who had their mother take over the wheel on a road trip because, and this is the quote, "You drive too slow."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ummm
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
WOW.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Crime- Impersonating a peace office
How often do you watch a heist film and see thieves wear a semblance of a uniform and direct traffic so a caravan of thieves get away? (not saying that is what happened here)
You, the savvy viewer with god-like vision, wonder why citizens could so easily be beguiled by this rag-tag impression of a peace officer or security guard.
The crime is not in the action but in the domino effect an action like this could have. The police were well within their right to give this gentlemen a citation for a number of reasons.
It is also presumptuous to think that the officers involved in this case, were not involved in other investigations at the time. Would you have these officers stay to direct traffic if they were on the way to investigate a more serious crime?
It is reasonable to question authority but be reasonable about how you question it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Crime- Impersonating a peace office
Impersonating what? he was wearing a safety vest. you may want to re-read the article and re-think your comment.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Crime- Impersonating a peace office
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Traffic
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Traffic
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Police should do their job that way we don't have to do it. Enough said.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Not enough manpower?
If you multiply the amount of cars needing to wait by 30, you get the total number of hours of time this cost members of the community. Assuming 1 lane in each direction, 1 mile of backups in each direction, and each car taking up 26.4 feet, that's 800 cars, so 400 hours of citizen's time wasted per half hour the traffic is undirected (after a half hour, 800 new cars are in the jam.) Is it *really* not worth the police's time?
The value to the citizens of making the traffic flow, I would argue, is actually more important than almost anything else they could be doing, unless they're ALL investigating violent crimes and home invasions. If they had time to ticket the guy, they had time for one of them to direct traffic.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Wrong city in article.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]